Long hose & dh and other potential traps of faulty thinking

[Nemrod]

Part of the fun of eclectic diving is mixing gear and methods of modern and vintage and everything in between. But, after reading through some of the usual long hose weekly arguments on sb I just thought as a warning, the idea of utilizing a cave type 5 or 7 foot hose with a double hose in the DIR method of routing it around the body and behind the neck and then necklacing does NOT work with a double hose regulator.

Why you ask?

1. The entire concept of the DIR long hose is that the diver breaths from the long hose as primary and DONATES that regulator to the OOA diver and then switches to the necklaced secondary which is routed over the shoulder on a 26 (+-) hose.

2. The twin hose diver, modern or not, will when using a conventional single hose second stage regulator for back up (octopus) will donate the single hose and NOT the twin hose mouthpiece. That is fine and dandy as long as the octopus is on a hose routed under the right arm or otherwise routed to be clear of the twin hose.

So, what happens if you use a long hose (5 to 7 feet) routed around your body DIR method, well, nimrod, let us remember that the long hose routes AROUND and BEHIND the neck/head and that puts it UNDER the twin hoses. Uh, oh, so the OOA diver presents himself for air and you jauntily attempt to hand him your long hose second and when you do you find this action also strips the twin hose from YOUR mouth.

This is a classic example of a fault that can happen when mixing gear and methods that were not conceived of as a functioning system. The DIR long hose method is a CAVE/overhead system that has been around in one form or another for decades and was developed in the cave country of Florida in the 70s. It is not, though often used as such, an open water system. That is my OPINION.

When the long hose is adopted to the twin hose diver, you are definitely doing it wrong to begin with because you are NOT breathing the long hose and donating the long hose, ----> BUSTED <-----, it simply does not work and was never meant to work that way.

Unlike the "DIR" system, we twin hose divers breath, the uh, twin hose, right? We donate a secondary or octopus second. Sure, you can route that secondary hose anyway you think fits and you can use any length of hose you want but you CANNOT run it around your torso, under a can light and then behind your head because you will not be able to deploy it.

Personally, I run my octopus under my right arm on a 40 inch hose, use a right angle adapter and then use a breakaway necklace. There are other ways to do it and that is not my point, just be careful to think it out so that both regulators remain functional when the octopus is deployed.

Just as a side note, I have mentioned it before, the Seahunt style harness with sternum straps and all that trapped under a horsecollar BC. Many people do this, I see them doing it, I have done it, this is strictly MY opinion. The horsecollar BC came along well after the simple Seahunt harness went the way of the do-do bird (well, not completely but I just wanted to say do-do bird ). They were never intended to be used together, well, see, just keep it in mind that if the "safety loop" of the harness slips out of the sternum strap or waist strap and is covered by the horsecollar BC you may not be able to doff the rig and if you put your weight belt UNDER the Seahunt harness as I have also seen being done (another modern diver concept), well, now that will not jettison either, so now you could be in a pickle .

Just a reminder, I do not care how you do whatever it is you are doing, but do please think though what it is you are doing and practice to make sure it actually works and has no hidden traps.

James

[ccyyss]

There is an analogy in the "DIR" system to double hose OC... the RB80 semi-closed rebreather. They have a procedure for deploying the (unused) long hose backup reg with the RB80, but I personally think it is a kludge and not exactly consistent with the rest of their system -- it requires that you go off the loop momentarily, lifting it with your right hand, and then donating the long hose by unclipping it from your right shoulder D-ring with your left hand. In the case of the RB80, there is a DSV or BOV on the mouthpiece that allows you to close it, something which is lacking on double hose OC regs.

Of course, this RB80 info doesn't change any of the points that you made.

Chris
(vintage mk15 rebreather diver)

[Drado]

I actually like Nemrod's configuration. After seeing photos of it in other threads, I decided to emulate it with my own set-up.


I was initially wary of using a swivel, but since using a DH is definitely way out of the LH crowd, I thought "why not". I ended up using a fixed 110 degree adapter - thus allowing the 40" secondary hose to route nicely in a bungeed config.

I think that if I wanted a longer hose for a secondary (say 5 feet?) I'd probably route it down my right side, tucked under a canister or in the waist band, up to the right shoulder with one loop through some retaining straps and then bungeed under my chin. Though at this time, the standard octo length seems more than adequate for most conditions.

On a different tangent, when the VDH DSV does come out, it'll give users more tools in their bag of tricks.

[swimjim]

Couple pieces of inner tube on your tank and you can tame a 7 footer. Kind of like a slung pony.

[Nemrod]

There is an analogy in the "DIR" system to double hose OC... the RB80 semi-closed rebreather. They have a procedure for deploying the (unused) long hose backup reg with the RB80, but I personally think it is a kludge and not exactly consistent with the rest of their system -- it requires that you go off the loop momentarily, lifting it with your right hand, and then donating the long hose by unclipping it from your right shoulder D-ring with your left hand. In the case of the RB80, there is a DSV or BOV on the mouthpiece that allows you to close it, something which is lacking on double hose OC regs.

Of course, this RB80 info doesn't change any of the points that you made.

Chris
(vintage mk15 rebreather diver)

Yes, and their thinking falls under my catagory of "faulty thinking"

I actually like Nemrod's configuration. After seeing photos of it in other threads, I decided to emulate it with my own set-up.


I was initially wary of using a swivel, but since using a DH is definitely way out of the LH crowd, I thought "why not". I ended up using a fixed 110 degree adapter - thus allowing the 40" secondary hose to route nicely in a bungeed config.

I think that if I wanted a longer hose for a secondary (say 5 feet?) I'd probably route it down my right side, tucked under a canister or in the waist band, up to the right shoulder with one loop through some retaining straps and then bungeed under my chin. Though at this time, the standard octo length seems more than adequate for most conditions.

On a different tangent, when the VDH DSV does come out, it'll give users more tools in their bag of tricks.

I think you may have out done me, you are definitely a clean diver. Yes, you can tuck a hose like we used to long ago, my point is the current approach to wrapping the hose may not work with some systems. However, I was not trying to sell people on my way or any way, just pointing out the need to think through what you do and why you are doing it- unlike the lemmings of the other bunch .

Couple pieces of inner tube on your tank and you can tame a 7 footer. Kind of like a slung pony.

Yes, of course but my point was to think things through and adapt, if tucking a hose is your adaptive method to facilitate the use of a long hose and you think you need a long hose, then by all means, tuck it.

The wrapping the primary is because the donating diver donates the primary and switches to the secondary on a necklace. So, again, another point, the system is already BUSTED by not being rigged to donate the primary source so why bother emulating the rest of it by wrapping the (single) hose UNDER your primary which for us is a double hose regulator. This is at best confused thinking, sort of like trying to further adapt the long hose concept to the rebreather world where they too are not donating their primary---why wrap in that case?

Of course, I know the answer, when you make it up as you go you can make up anything you want and in this case, the secondary is still thought to be more accessible (to the owner, who BTW gains nothing by the hose being wrapped or being 7 feet long) by necklacing even if the wrapping part makes it problematic to donate to a OOA buddy.

Problems with wrapped long hose with rebreathers:
1. Hose entanglement and confusion
2. Both divers are without air
3. Potential to flood the loop

Sounds almost like a double hose diver emulating the wrapped primary 7 foot hose for their octo/secondary, huh? I could think of more if I felt like it.

Nem

[swimjim]

Personally, I think it's better to sling a pony and donate that. That way, both divers remain independent. No entanglement issues period. In the final analysis, I prefer solo diving which makes this a mute point.

[8dust]

Enjoying the discussion BTW...

[antique diver]

All this thinking hurts my brain. I thought Vintage diving was supposed to be simple.

(James, actually it is an interesting and thought provoking thread. Thanks for starting it.)

[DaleC]

I don't think it's fair to slag DIR for any idea of using a longhose and a vintage doublehose. I dive both configurations and one of the basic tenets for them is to think through all failure points as well as doing actual pre-dive drills to ensure there is no accidental hose trapping. While I don't agree with all their ideas I can't knock them for things they wouldn't do.

The rb80 seems to be something they are still toying with, like the Z system for sidemount. There is a lot of discussion both ways in the community for those concepts.

Personally I sling a pony.

[Nemrod]

All this thinking hurts my brain. I thought Vintage diving was supposed to be simple.

(James, actually it is an interesting and thought provoking thread. Thanks for starting it.)

My head hurts too, maybe not for the same reasons .

James

[Ron]

Interesting talk. It's nice to have some chatter on here again! The winter months are slow for a lot of you northern folks with respect to diving though.

For me, I see diving as a mission. Depending on the mission, you equip yourself (or your team) appropriately. To Jim's point, a pony is a nice way to dive when you are alone, or you are forced to buddy with someone of questionable skill. If I have to dive a dive boat without Anna or Capn Tucker, then I like that route. If I really trust the person, then I dive with just a double hose, and no secondary at all. If I sort of trust you, then I use a secondary without a pony.

I never really saw the point in a long hose. I have a rig that uses one, for when I have to be in the configuration for some chode to let me dive on his tech trip, or for a class or whatever. I've never seen a use for it. I don't dive caves, do I don't envision a situation where I am going to have to give air to someone 7 feet away from me. Still, I guess people find a use for them.

The whole "you can dive everywhere in the world one way" mentality is silly to me. It doesn't exist in any other sport or activity, so why should it exist in ours?

[USdiver]

Good points all. I tend to identify most with Ron's position, that of viewing our diving activities as mission based, depending on the kind of diving we are engaged. There are many dives where a dh is the regulator of choice for me (open water, photography, spearfishing, vintage/eclectic) and I concur with Ron's - pony bottle, average length octopus hose, no octopus needed/desired - evaluation methods. There are other missions where I consider a sh the way to go (confined/overhead environment) being principal among them. Here I can see the inherent advantage of the 5' - 7' hose and the DIR philosophy for using them.
Like many of you, I do enjoy it when missions overlap, say when engaged in open water diving in the Great Lakes. By not venturing into a wreck and the equipment needs of say overhead environments, the cold water becomes the deciding factor for me, and I as often as not will go with a PRAM with a standard length octopus hose, as I would a similarly equipped sh with a cold water kit on the first stage.

Good discussion gentlemen.

[Nemrod]

I guess we are missing some of what I originally said. You can certainly use a long hose, seven feet, hell, make it ten feet, but you cannot run it around and around your body and back behind your head and under the twin hose, uh, hoses as you will not be able to deploy it without removing your mouthpiece and now you have two divers at least for a moment with no air supply.

You can tuck the hose, old school cave style, either through your waist band or under a bungee on the tank. The reason these methods fell out of favor with the current DIR cave crowd is that getting the hose back under the tank bungee is not fun, and usually requires help. But, if a long hose is needed, in a wreck or whatever reason, then tucking it on the tank is a better alternative. If you tuck the long hose this way (waist or tank bungee) you have to make an actual loop in the hose to take up the length.

I have long hose rigs, completely familiar with how they work, their strengths and weaknesses. If I needed a long hose secondary with a twin hose reg then I would tuck, not wrap DIR style.

James

[Bryan]

Too many divers get stuck in the mud of details and talk by armchair divers on message boards. You could have the greatest contraption ever conceived by someone with a keyboard....If you are not comfortable using it and it takes you more than a few minutes to explain it to your buddy then you are just kidding yourself..The perception of better is much different than the reality.
Not saying the setup I'm currently using is any better or worse than anything else. But I know I can use it in 99% of all situations without questioning it.
A diver with good skills and a cool head is far superior to one burdened with the latest stuff money can buy and no practical knowledge of how to use it.. Part of the beauty of vintage gear is being A DIVER not and equipment platform.

Your results may vary

[Ron]

I think that Bryan hit on a great point. Our collective thought process here centers around the diver, and not the gear. I think it comes with being skill centric, like you have to be in order to dive this gear well. We use gear, but we use it from the perspective of what we need to dive, not the other way around. I see an awful lot of people diving crap that they cannot explain. If it doesn't have a purpose, then why are you using it?

It's like Nemrod's point. You could figure out a way to use a double hose with a long hose...but why? Why point does it serve? If you are in some crazy cave, then a doublehose isn't the best choice. If you are in the open ocean, with a doublehose, then you don't need a long hose. It's a made up situation. You just don't need it. It's like a safety lever on a double action pistol. Why?