What makes a bad first stage?

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tripplec
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What makes a bad first stage?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:28 am

When I look at parts diagrams in the manuals section, all the regulators look to be built the same internally. My oceanic cdx5 looks very much the same as my friends Apex tx50, my mr12, and my Phoenix. So what makes the cheaper brands more prone to icing or other problems? Or is that a totally outdated stereotype to get people to spend $$$$ on a specific brand name. I assume there is no quick easy answer on this one.

Ive been seeing many of my questions asked by other people in past threads. Please feel free to direct me to where I Should have read before posting another topic.

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Bryan
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Re: What makes a bad first stage?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:13 pm

You don't sell the steak.....you sell the sizzle.... It's all about marketing and advertising. 01% of the divers in the world NEED a regulator made from titanium but anyone with enough coin can buy one.......I don't think price has any relation to a regulator icing or not. There are plenty of very expensive regulators with poor design choices in them. Sherwood was an inexpensive line of regulators but have always been highly praised by divers in cold water. The reason most inexpensive regulators were discarded is lack of spare parts and support. The internet is changing that and great regulators outside the traditional network are on the rise with parts and support direct to the diver.
Few if any great leaps have been made in regulator design for decades. This is one of the reasons you don't see work of breathing that heavily advertised anymore as most regulators all breathe pretty easy these days. They might look a little different or have a new feature or two but the majority of first stages are still based on the Royal Aqua Master and or Scubapro MK5.

The vast majority of people buy a new regulator because they WANT a new one....Not actually NEED one.
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

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tripplec
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Re: What makes a bad first stage?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:26 pm

I cant find the thumbs up button. Love the sizzle part. Wish I could dive around some of you guys instead of being stuck in my little corner of Oregon.

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swimjim
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Re: What makes a bad first stage?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:52 pm

What Bryan says is damn straight, so plus one. When you start tearing these things apart you will realize how similar they all are. The only first stages I do not care for are the Oceanic's used by the dive rescue team I am on. Over the sintered filter they have some weird restricter plate. I think it's an attempt to prevent newbies from flooding a first stage in a rinse tank. I'm no engineer, but it seems to me that that contributes to this regulators POOR breathing performance. Like most of my kit for the fire dept, my regs are not standard issue.
Like Bryan says most regs are rehashed versions of a Royal Aquamaster or a Scubapro Mk5. You want something different try Poseidon. Great regs, I haven't figured them out just yet. Ha.

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tripplec
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Re: What makes a bad first stage?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:00 pm

swimjim wrote:What Bryan says is damn straight, so plus one. When you start tearing these things apart you will realize how similar they all are. The only first stages I do not care for are the Oceanic's used by the dive rescue team I am on. Over the sintered filter they have some weird restricter plate. I think it's an attempt to prevent newbies from flooding a first stage in a rinse tank. I'm no engineer, but it seems to me that that contributes to this regulators POOR breathing performance. Like most of my kit for the fire dept, my regs are not standard issue.
Like Bryan says most regs are rehashed versions of a Royal Aquamaster or a Scubapro Mk5. You want something different try Poseidon. Great regs, I haven't figured them out just yet. Ha.

That dry valve is one of the things I like about my oceanic. The plunger over the inlet. I dont notice hard breathing off it, but the second stage is crap. The first stage breathed great on my 109. But I think they may have discontinued the dry valve. And yes, its to keep water out.

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georgeaustin
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Re: What makes a bad first stage?

Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:25 am

Indeed - buying a brand new regulator is a matter of choice and not necessity. I recently purchased a brand new Mk 25 + G260 and although it's not the breather my PRAM is (by a long shot) - it's nice to bring along on trips as a back up the the PRAM or Voit.
You hear almost all divers on boats out here look askance at the PRAM and issue their ill informed warnings against using it deeper that 30fsw but that's part of the appeal as well - listening to them making fools of themselves and spending the day swimming circles around them at 130fsw. :-)

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Bryan
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Re: What makes a bad first stage?

Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:55 am

I knew this time would come and urban legend/old wives tales/ignorance has spread to the single hose community as well.

A "technician" called yesterday asking for advice on updating a G250 to the newer S-wing poppet. Said the guy he was doing if for wanted it for a pool practice regulator because they were no longer good for REAL DIVING.

I told him if my body were up to it I'd dive the Doria with a G250 any day. He laughed and said I must be crazy to even consider that with such primitive equipment........I just took a deep breath and let it go.
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

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tripplec
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Re: What makes a bad first stage?

Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:48 am

Speaking of "technicians", i met one last weekend well known in the North West that asked why I'm diving a double hose. I simply said I like it. He then went on about how the in water ansti testing shows a hard wob. I blew it off after asking if he has seen any testing on newer updates such as the hpr and he said no. Anyway, I looked at the Phoenix test data in the manuals section, and Im curious which number I use to compare against the advertised .5jl wob on the SP A700?

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Nemrod
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Re: What makes a bad first stage?

Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:42 pm

Bryan wrote:You don't sell the steak.....you sell the sizzle.... It's all about marketing and advertising. 01% of the divers in the world NEED a regulator made from titanium but anyone with enough coin can buy one.......

The vast majority of people buy a new regulator because they WANT a new one....Not actually NEED one.


Soooo, hmmmm, does this mean you will make me a titanium Kraken :oops:

Nem

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Nemrod
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Re: What makes a bad first stage?

Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:59 pm

The Halcyon Halo is a G250 and is current production. So the G250 is not really gone and is still a top performance regulator.

Nem

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Bryan
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Re: What makes a bad first stage?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:32 am

Scubapro could have stopped at the MK10/G250 combination and everyone else would still be trying to catch up. Not that they have not made good regulators since. but 99.9% of it is window dressing.
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

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