RAM Problems

[Bryan]

Not to worry! It will be investigated and rectified as soon as it gets to me. I'm anxious to examine the part that is the culprit. I've been diving with the exact parts in my regulator for 3 years now. It will be better than new when I'm finished.

[luis]

I would like to see some pictures of the broken parts.
Even better, I would like to examine them if possible. I am extremely curious to what could have caused such a failure.
Make sure the parts are preserved, don't throw away any pieces. I would really like to see them.

[luis]

Bryan,
I was typing the last post (to Treasureman) at the same time you posted, but my request to view parts after you are done still applies.
I am not an expert on failure analysis, but I have been somewhat involved in it.

[treasureman]

The entire reg broken parts and all were sent off to be overhauled. Please feel free to look them over. The nozzle and all associated parts are in a film canister, so nothing should end up getting lost in transit.

I would be interested in your input. As i mentioned in a previous post. given the volume of such parts in use, this is no doubt an aberation.

At least it points to what may have been the problem, and is easy to fix.

[JES]

It will be interesting to see the pictures and hear what Bryan & Luis have to say about the failed part.

[Nemrod]

I have spent the day working on various projects and the last one of the day is my newest RAM. This is a heavy yoke model and probably one of the very last made. I notice the internal parts appear slightly different. The crown spring retainer is silver rather than brass colored and has a slightly different contour. The HP seat is exactly the same shape as the "blue" Conshelf seats obtained from Mr. VDH. The pin measures .637 using my digital caliper.

Bryan, what is that little white nylon seal/ring that you included with that replacement pin you sent me?

I saw a broken crown on a DA I rebuilt. Fortunately I had another crown to put in it. I think this was broken and I suspect yours was broken during installation. This is not to critisize anyone or besmirch anyone but I suspect I broke the one on the DA when I first tried to put it together. Perhaps the spring pinched it. Perhaps this could happen during assembly of a RAM nozzle, pinching he spring behind the crown if it went in slightly off center? I am just trying to figure out how this might happen or what could cause it to happen so we can all avoid it in the future. I would like to see the pictures myself also.

James

[treasureman]

here is the crown.. broken piece at three o clock

[treasureman]

here is a pix of the crown side view

[Nemrod]

That is funny, I just took two RAMs apart last night and did the rebuild, seals, rings, HP seat and all that, mostly pats obtained from VDH so as not ot dip into my NOS supply. AND, anyways, Bryan's stuff is better--lol.

That RAM crown is round--yes it is a round crown and my DA has the square crown. I am now confused.

James

[Nemrod]

I am going out on a limb and I am going to tell you that square crown is the wrong part. I notice some grooves cut into the lower surface from the spring. I have done it before, picked up the wrong piece and installed it and how many times have you taken apart and put it back only to have found yourself some new spares---ooooppps. Where do you think the LDS get's all those parts from in their parts drawers!

Nemrod

[Nemrod]

Here is a picture showing around crown for a RAM, a square crown for a DA, the little mystery white ring, a strange diaphram that will not seat into the can correctly but otherwise is very nice, a DA pin push button which has a longer stem than the RAM version (not shown) and of course a Broxton Chuck stainless steel banjo--just for scale. Yes, those are NOS seats, I got a very few left.

Nemrod

[treasureman]

does the diaphragm sit high in the cans. with thick edges without the circumference ring on it that most diaprhagms have. if so, you may have a mill spec diaprhgam I always misspell that word. The mill ones are a touch thicker in the outer edges, but work exceedingly well and a band clamp really hold em down but good

[Bryan]

I'm still in New Orleans so I don't have acess to all my info...... The white ring is for additional guidance and support for the HP seat. I have seen it in late model RAM's and in all late model Conshelf regulators. The square crown is from the latest Conshelf regulator and I use them in the RAM"s when changing over to the blue Conshelf seat. Especially if the original RAM crown does not have the white nylon support ring. In 90% of the RAM's that I have put the Conshelf crown in, it goes back together exactly like the RAM crown. In a few of them I have had to shave off the very sharp points on the square crown. Up until now they have worked perfectly with no problems. My RAM is like it and I know several others that are using the same setup....I can't figure out what caused the whole thing to break? It warrents further investigation for sure....

But then again if all this stuff worked perfectly we would have nothing to talk about !!!!

[Bryan]

James, I think that square crown you have in the photo is from a Conshelf not a DA....Unless they snuck them in earlier than I had seen before.

That diaphragm works great if you lower the action on your 2nd stage lever a bit. You are right though......Does not seem to work in the can!!

[luis]

Hi Nemrod

The round crown on the right is the original Royal Aqua Master.
The square one the left is from an early Conshelf (or maybe a very late RAM).
The one from Treasureman is from a modern Conshelf. The only difference is the silver looking plating.

All the crowns (spring blocks) are closed at the top to form the LP balancing chamber to make it a balanced first stage. They are all interchangeable.

My first impression on the pictures from Treasureman is that those groves you see were accidentally filed too deeply. Some times when using a Conshelf spring block it is good to lightly round that edge. Again this is a total preliminary speculation from looking at that picture and it is far from been conclusive.


It is hard for me to see details about your little white washer, but it looks like it could be the O-ring back up ring that goes inside the RAM (Conshelf) spring block / LP chamber. The O-ring back up ring inside that chamber is very important. It helps keep the O-ring from extruding into the chamber.

The back up ring goes in first and then the O-ring. The O-ring is being push into the LP chamber by the tank pressure. Back-up rings are commonly used for high pressure O-ring service. It is particularly important for higher pressures (3000 psi or higher).

I have seen at least three different back up rings used by USD: 1) a white split one in the earlier regulators, 2) a white solid ring similar to the one you are showing, 3) and a black ring with a slight grove facing the O-ring.


Here is what a DA Aqua Master spring block looks like. It is open at the top since it is not forming a low pressure chamber. It is just a spring guide.
This picture is from Bryan’s store: