Super Stretch Hoses are Super?

[William]

That is so well put Alan. Gives all of us much to ponder about our Vintage Regulators. Thank you sir. I myself would like to have Luis's Nozzel on my Da and I am also hopeing, since I have no skills here on assembly, would be, to ask Bryan or Dan or even Luis, if they could assemble it all for me so it would be correct and safe for use. On the New Aqua Lung double hose Mistral, I would love to have one of those too. I imagine that they will be selling better, later on, as the original Vintage double hoses continue to go up so Greatly in value and cost and are really not very safe to use on deep dives, say to 200 feet and Not safe at all for Cave Diving no matter how it is looked at. The new Mistral should be safe for that all though and also acceptable to all the Charter Boat Captains for you to use on their boats on Charters. I personally will be getting one later on and adapting Dan's new hoses and old style mouthpiece to them so that will still be safe and also remove the problems with the new Mistral's Hoses and Mouthpiece being so wrong in design. Hopefully Aqua Lung will correct those problems in the future and make the New Mistral much more comfortable and easier breathing and would be more attractive and much closer to the Vintage Regulators in appearance. I am actually fascinated that it is designed useing a combination of Double Hose and Single Hose technology and I really like the looks of it too. It is Unique in appearance and I beleive it has great value. If it were to be discontined then it surely would become a Valuable Collectable Double Hose Regulator too. Even now, the New Mistral, to me, is just as Valuable as the old vintage Double Hose Regulators and would be great fun to use to compare with the old double hose regulators even if it is not as good as them. It also shows that Aqua Lung is Aware of a great number of divers who want the old style Dive Gear. That is also a very good thing to know that they would go to the trouble to try and produce the double hose regulator again for us. I just wish they would do the same with much more vintage type diving equipment,such as the old super powerfull spear guns, like the ones that used a CO2 cylinder and had a 1,000 psi force to the Spear when Fired. I would buy one of those in a Heartbeat. William

[William]

Here are some of the old style with a few extremely powerfull spear guns that seems that they never made it to mass production. A 1,000 psi spear gun would be fun to have. William

[luis]

I imagine that they will be selling better, later on, as the original Vintage double hoses continue to go up so Greatly in value and cost and are really not very safe to use on deep dives, say to 200 feet and Not safe at all for Cave Diving no matter how it is looked at. The new Mistral should be safe for that all though and also acceptable to all the Charter Boat Captains for you to use on their boats on Charters.

William

William

I strongly disagree with your statement about the safety and or reliability of double hose regulators. I already wrote a posting about the reliability (not-performance) of DH regulators and don’t need to repeat it: viewtopic.php?t=656&start=0

I am very confident that the Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) numbers for a vintage well maintained DH is superior to a single hose regulator. Just counting the number of failure points of a single hose there is no comparison. And the probability of failure, of the same failure points (like second stage seat) would be lower in a DH since both the first stage and second stage are environmentally sealed.

The new Mistral shares some of the reliability advantage of a vintage DH, but just by adding that IP hose (between the first and second stage) they have added three failure points: two O-rings and the hose. Granted this are low probability failure points, but they do add up.

[luis]

Allan

I never meant that we were in disagreement. I think your approach is great and your selection of the year 1962 is cool.

I do believe that there is room for two different kinds of reconditioning as I said above: “an original reconditioning that a curator would do (to a collector’s or museum piece) and a reconditioning / overhaul that a technician would do to a working piece of machinery or regulator. They are both preserving history in a different way, one in its original state and the other in the state the original designer intended it to function.”

I am going to use a different example than the hoses since they are very visually important and therefore to controversial due to there looks.

Let’s talk about the phenolic versus the nylon gaskets in a DA or RAM. They are both available to us thanks to Bryan (again Bryan thank you very much). We have the option of using a reproduction gasket that even reproduces the original material or we can use a replacement gasket made of Nylon. Neither option is wrong, but I am willing to bet (and I am not a gambling person) that the original designer intended and prefers that we use an improved material as it comes available.

Another example is the first stage seats for the Conshelf (and the RAM). USD replaced the original hard rubber seats with the Teflon. They discontinued the hard rubber seat and the intention from the designer’s point of view is that they should be replaced.

Talking about the first stage seats, I have owned a round label Royal since 1971. Within the first year of working at the dive shop, I got tired of the first stage leaking and I convert it to a DA Aqua Master. I hated doing that because the Royal… well is a Royal. After 34 years I was able to converted back to a proud Royal with an original style nozzle (again thanks to Bryan) and with a new Teflon seat that works like it was supposed to (great!!). That is my original childhood double hose regulator and will never have a Phoenix nozzle. It works just fine with a banjo and it is configured like the original designer / engineer intended it to be configured. It also performs (breaths) just like they dreamed it would.


Again the Phoenix is a totally separate subject. I like your analogy with the PT Cruiser, but I think it is more like the 1950’s American cars in Cuba were they have adapted Russian and Eastern European transmissions and other parts to keep driving them. Necessity… is… the mother of invention.

[simonbeans]

I definitely like your conversations. You are much more eloquent in your phasing that I am. Again, I agree exactly with your various points of view. I would like to maintain the past in the way the past was. But eventually all of the original parts will be gone. Thus, Bryan and Dan and others (you especially) have been able to either reproduce with exact materials or use materials available today. Quite obviously many of today's materials are superior to those of the past. I reproduce cotton harnesses similar to the ones that were available in the 1950's. With each I always let the buyer know that the harness, being made of cotton, is guaranteed to fade, and eventually rot away. Thus are the characteristics of cotton. Would a nylon harness be better? Of course it would. Would I make a harness of nylon in the configuration of a cotton original, and of course, and I have. Do I like the nylon ones? Not really, they just are not the way they were. Do they look ok? From 10 yards, you can not tell the difference. But I know and so does the owner. In the real world, outside of vintage divers, does anybody know or even care?
I wish to preserve and yet use the DH we so dearly love. If an original part is not available, but a modern reproduction is, then that is what I will put into my units. Would I resell it as an original? No, because it is not 100% authentic and I would be honest enough to let the new owner know what I did. Whenever Bryan overhauls a regulator he returns all of the original parts. They will go with the regulator to the new owner. But for me, a piece of history is still maintained, used and cared for. That is what I try to do, to use the equipment and not abuse it. Hopefully when I dive in that Glorious Reef, God willing, the next owner will be able to use my stuff with the same enjoyment I had. Thanks for your comments, makes this forum fun, doesn't it??
Allan

[Nemrod]

William, those are some really neat spearguns you have there. You are quite the collector of esoteric items eh--lol. Those things are very unusual and so neat. Good job!

I am quite confident my Royal Aqua Masters are more reliable and more capable than any modern regulator or at least as much so. Cave diving and certain other types of diving that have come to utilize the DIR type system would not find a double hose regulator acceptable, not because they are unreliable or unsafe in deep water but because they don't fit into the system that has been developed for that type of diving.

As an ex cave diver I have some concerns with a double hose in that environment because of the restrictions to buddy breathing and air sharing--sometimes for extended periods. This is not a problem in open water diving.
Nemrod

[duckbill]

On the New Aqua Lung double hose Mistral, I would love to have one of those too. I imagine that they will be selling better, later on, as the original Vintage double hoses continue to go up so Greatly in value and cost and are really not very safe to use on deep dives, say to 200 feet and Not safe at all for Cave Diving no matter how it is looked at. The new Mistral should be safe for that all though...............

Even now, the New Mistral, to me, is just as Valuable as the old vintage Double Hose Regulators and would be great fun to use to compare with the old double hose regulators even if it is not as good as them (the "old vintage Double Hose Regulators").

William, you may want to reread your post. I put your reference to the vintage double hosers in bold, and your reference to the new Mistral in italics. Can you see the contradiction?

If the new Mistral is 'not as good as the old vintage Double Hose Regulators', and the 'original Vintage double hoses' are not safe; then, the new Mistral must be less than safe, not 'safe for all that (deep diving and cave diving)' as you had previously stated!

[duckbill]

On the New Aqua Lung double hose Mistral, I would love to have one of those too. I imagine that they will be selling better, later on, as the original Vintage double hoses continue to go up so Greatly in value and cost and are really not very safe to use on deep dives, say to 200 feet and Not safe at all for Cave Diving no matter how it is looked at. The new Mistral should be safe for that all though...............

Even now, the New Mistral, to me, is just as Valuable as the old vintage Double Hose Regulators and would be great fun to use to compare with the old double hose regulators even if it is not as good as them (the "old vintage Double Hose Regulators").

William, you may want to reread your post. I put your reference to the vintage double hosers in bold, and your reference to the new Mistral in italics. Can you see the contradiction?

If the new Mistral is 'not as good as the old vintage Double Hose Regulators', and the 'original Vintage double hoses' are not safe; then, the new Mistral must be less than safe, not 'safe for all that (deep diving and cave diving)' as you had previously stated!

Well, I don't seem to be able to edit this time around, but "the new Mistral must be less than safe" should read "the new Mistral must be less than unsafe".

[William]

I just have to read and learn here, because I do not know the FACTS about the Single and Double Hose Regulators, only know what I have been told and also what I have heard and read at both Forums about the failures of the double hose regulators by several divers. I have never heard any failures,Ever, of a single hose regulator. Since I started diving I have Always been told that the single hose regulator was the Only safe type to use. I stayed with my double hose anyway. If people like Luis, Nemrod and other members are positive the double hose is much safer and much More reliable for deep diving and all, then that must be the truth. I said the New Mistral would be good for both deep dives and cave diving because I have been told it is a completely Modern regulator with new technology that is the safest double hose regulator ever made. So, I guess that is a complete lie. I will let the professional say what is really good and safe. William

[William]

Hey Nemrod I own the Hurricane and many other spear guns of all types but the other Picture is of many styles of Older Spearguns, many that use a (compressed air bottle) with Very High psi force. I do not own those though. I did say I would like to have a 1000 psi one in my posting there. William

[Nemrod]

William, while we were in the Weeke Wachee place the kid that was diving with one of our members had his SINGLE HOSE pop an O-ring and fail. It happens all the time. I have had numerous failures of single hose regulators and it is common if you go out on a dive boat to see single hosers fail--usually a popped seal in the first stage when they turn on air or a free flow from the second stage. It is so common that wreck divers, cave and other tech types will use two regulators.

Now, the only failures of a double hose I have seen are the two duckbill reversals, one at Alexander and the other at Wazee. This would not prevent you from breathing in, just have to breath out through your nose and abort the dive--whcih they did.

Not all doule hose regulators are created equal, when I say they are reliable I am only talking about primarily the Royal Aqua Master which is essentially a double hose Conshelf (and known to be a tough and reliable single hose) and the DA and Mistral. Healthways, Sportsways and other off brands I cannot attest to their reliablity or anything else since I rarely see them and have never used them.

The only people who will tell you they are dangerous are dive shops and people who don't know what they are taling about--now---learning to clear them, budy breath with them, set them up to perform RELIABLY and with good performance is part of the fun and magic of vintage diving.

The apparent toughness of these super stretch hoses will certainly add to the reliability, we did see a torn hose at Wazee also.

This leads to something else----if you are doing a deep or dangerous dive, or let's say I am, then I am going to use new hoses and new kit parts from Bryan and new parts any place I can, internal and external. Anything old sometimes even if it is claimed to be NOS is still OLD and possibly rotten or failure prone. If I am diving in Alexander Springs, sure bring out the 40 year old like new hoeses and phenolic gaskets and all that, if I am going to do that swim thru of the Oriskany in 150 feet of water then I want my Round Label Royals with NEW hoses and new diaphram and new Conshelf parts and new silicone cage valves and new everything.

It is not the reliability of double hose regs that is suspect to me--it is the old parts--that is why Luis and Bryan and Dan are so important to us because they are providing new parts that function like the old stuff or in some cases better while still allowing us to keep the original look very closely.

The most failure prone regulator I have used is the Tekna, it is also quite likely the highest performance regulator ever made or very close. Like a Ferrari it is fast and tempermental and somewhat mysterious.

Nemrod

[William]

Hey Nemrod. Thank you for helping me understand about the Single Hose as compared to the Double Hose. I have also asked Sam to find out as much as I can about the problems. (((I think the reason I do not know much about the single hose Failures is because I only tried a Single hose back in 1965. In a few minutes I got out and got my Voit Double Hose BACK on my Tank and never used a Single again. I also did most of my Diving Solo. So I just do not know these things about how the Single Hose Regulators Fail. I SURE am Glad to find out that my Double Hose Regulators Really are the BEST. That is WONDERFULL & ENLIGHTENING. "Thank you James. William"

[oldmossback]

Not to be throwing rocks or disagreeing or agreeing with anyone, but I have some recent mid deep water (is there such a discription?) experience.

Just got back from Cozumel where there are some strong currents almost anywhere one dives.............

Please note, I am not the the best condition and have not been in salt water in two years......therefore I spent a lot of time snorkling just to get back into reasonable condition.........

Fri, june 2nd, I made one shore dive for almost 50 minutes, max depth was 25 feet, experienced a strong current 70 feet from shore and was swept down from my entry point almost 100 yards, was a difficult swim back and was breathing pretty hard, finally reaching the entry point and rolled over on my back to take a rest.........scared my wife as I was in the water longer than I told her I would be........experienced no problems with my RAM.................

Sat. I made two dives from a small boat with another couple and one dive guide in the afternoon.........first dive at Yucab reef to 71 feet, current appox 5 knots, vis over 150 ft, shadows on the bottom from attached growth or coral......used my old Tekna single hose on this dive.........never over breathed it, but certianly gave it a work out with these out of condition lungs..........spent approx 20 minutes down before coming up......

Second dive was at Santa Rosa Wall, 60 foot depth, 7-8 knot current.......real roller coaster...used my RAM with octo/bc attachments......I was a bit tired so my breathing was less labored........

I did experience moments on both dives where I felt like I might be needing more air than I was getting.....I attribute that to being outta shape for this type diving......that being said, both type regs supplied me the air I needed.........however........there is a very noticable difference in breathing styles with the two types......something I feel should always be paramount in discussing differences between the two types of regulators....

Decending with the single hose, breathing was good, plently of air due to reg/lung position.......on the bottom, vertical, I was sucking air constantly with the single as I manuvered around taking photos, again due to the reg/lung position and my physical condition.

Decending with the double hose in almost twice the current force, face down at a 45 degree angle, crossing the current to join my group, I experienced a short fall of air around 20 to 30 feet down......I rolled over on my left side, the air was delivered as needed and continued the decent with no problems.

The RAM delivered just as well at the Tekna after repositioning my body so the RAM and my lungs were level.........I spent part of this drift dive either horizontial or vertical and did not experience any shortage of air due to my outta shape lungs. In fact, I noticed I was breathing much slower and easier.....

...accending I rolled over onto my back at about 40 feet due to the effort to swim toward the shore side of the wall, again crossing the current.......I got more air than I needed.........

In short, I believe the RAM breaths just as good or better than even the Tekna (which out breaths most if not all modern single hoses), however, one must know how to use the Double Hose effectively and understand the dynamics of the body/lungs/regulator position vs surrounding water pressure.

Oh yeah, diving with a double in a fast current deletes the normal attribute of no bubbles in ones face and how quiet it is..........the damm bubbles blew right by my ears from behind......noisy as hell............did not suffer hose pounding though.................

[Nemrod]

oldmossback, I know the feeling. Last year while pushing my large video camera into the Blue Spring I simply could not get enough air in the head down position working very hard. I was using my DA. I pulled over to the side and rolled over out of the current and regained my composure--shhhhh--don't tell anyone--shhh--Nemrod is a bit out of shape!!!! In any case, ever since then, regardless of what type regulator I am using I keep getting this nagging feeling I am not getting enough air. I know it is my imagination but still I guess it called into my mind that unlike twenty years ago--I am no longer invinceable.

Swapping from a Tekna to a RAM is like a time warp trip--so different from one another. You and me are probably the only two people on the planet that still dive a Tekna or lived to tell about it--lol.
Nemrod

[OystrPir8]

Has anyone noticed how many people are wearing glasses at the Renaissance Fair? -Drives me nuts sometimes, but hey - they are having fun. learning, and often teaching. Better than living blurry. (Contacts?)

Something about this vintage equipment gets the endorphines flowing for me - FAR more than the gear I am required to wear when helping with students. That said, I admire those who have the full-on, real authentic &accurate gear from head to toe. It's a tribute and an inspiration. I just dont want to get too bummed if someone uses the wrong hoses or fins or whatever. Hey, Im just happy to find people with similar interests enjoy hearing each bit of input. You're all pretty dang cool from what I can tell.

PS - this is my first posting on this forrum