Double Hose Neophyte

[lotthall]

Hello all! I am a neophyte to double hose. Although I have been diving for some years using the current single hose regs, I have always wanted to do the double hose thing. I am pretty sure I will start out with a "modern" DH, as I am not quite ready to give up my BC. That being said, I will be on the lookout for something like a RAM that I can put a Phoenix nozzle on. As I live in Gulfport, MS and have a daughter that lives in Panama City, FL, we (my better looking half and I) do much of our diving there. I am certainly open to any advice the "seasoned veterans" on this board have to offer, so please feel free to pitch in. And yes, I do my own reg work, so I will have to learn the DH regs now and I am also open to any advice on any upgrades that are advisable to make to the DH reg.

Cheers,
Lott Hall
Gulfport, MS

[Herman]

Welcome to the board.
When looking for a reg, RAMs are fine but the only difference between them a DAAM (DA Aquamaster) is the first stage and since you intend install a Phoenix nozzle (which is basically a new first stage) , the end product is exactly the same. And since RAMs tend to sell for a good bit more than a DAAM there is no reason at all to bypass a DAAM when it will do just as well and there is no need to spend the extra money unless you run across a deal. I applaud your interest in doing your own reg work but I would suggest that for your first reg or 2, believe me there will be more, that you either buy one that has been restored by one of our members or better yet by Bryan. The reason I suggest this is 2 fold. First, DH regs do breath differently and require a somewhat different diving technique so starting off with a reg you KNOW is working properly helps sort out where the “lack of performance’ is coming from since you can pretty much eliminate the reg. Next, while fairly easy to do, servicing of any reg and IMO more so with DH regs, it takes a little “ feel” to get it right. You have no way of knowing you have it right if you have not experienced diving with one that is properly tuned. Which leads me into the next subject.

While you don't have to give up your BC, you really should swap out to one that is designed to work with a DH reg. Most modern BC’s, BP/wings included, simply do not allow you to position the reg in it’s proper position on your back. Trying to use your modern BC will not go well, it will work but not well. They tend to force you to place the reg higher than is optimal and worse, they tend to hold the tank and reg off your back, a definite performance killer for a DH reg. An inch or so here makes a huge difference in performance. Do yourself a big favor and look into the BC Bryan sells that is designed especially for DH regs, it will make a world of difference and it works perfectly fine with modern regs as well. That said, most of us prefer no BC diving when we can and it’s appropriate. No BC diving is no where as difficult as you might imagine, esp. if you dive warmer water that does not require much wet suit. First off, get your weighting dead on, an extra few pounds makes a big difference when you don’t have the crutch of a BC to fall back on. When checking your weights, make sure your BC and wetsuit are fully cleared of any trapped air, make sure you don’t move your feet or hands and most important of all, SLOW DOWN,. I see way too many students doing a weight check and they seem to think they should drop like a rock as soon as they exhale….you shouldn’t but rather you should hesitate for a few seconds then start to SLOWLY sink. Properly weighted for warm water no BC diving, you should be about 2 lbs negative at the start of a dive and 2 positive at the end- basically the swing in buoyancy of a tank from full to empty. To learn no BC diving, I suggest to people I mentor a simple technique. Just dive what ever gear you are currently using to but dive it like you have no BC. Get your weighting dead on, dump ALL of the air out of your BC- making sure it’s empty, then do the dive using just your lung volume and cadence . If you find you must add or remove air as you change depths, then you have 1 of 2 problems, you are wearing very changeable exposure protection or more likely you still have air somewhere in your BC. There are techniques for dealing with heavier wetsuits but that is no BC 201. After a while you will find that on every dive, DH or not, you will deflate your BC as you descend and don’t touch it until you surface. When you get to this point, dropping the BC is easy since in effect you are already diving without one, and you’re a much better diver to boot.

Again, welcome to the board. Ask questions, a get to know the bunch who hang out here.. You will not find a better bunch of divers anywhere.

[8dust]

Welcome Aboard, Lotthall!

Some excellent advice from Mr. Herman.

PCB is a great place to get the ball rolling!

You will likely find it very ironic that vintage-style diving, which is basically less-is-more, can insspire the collecting of so much of it...?! My divelocker expanded 10-fold when I got down to tank/reg/mask/fins.... go figure.... It's great though, and these are fine and helpful people here. You're on the cusp of a wonderful adventure.

Fred

[Vintagediver]

Welcome to world of Vintage Diving; you're in for a great time, and will also make some great friends! Along with the other very good advice given to you by Fred and Herman; you might want to make sure that you pick yourself up a copy of "Basic Scuba" by Fred M. Roberts. You'll find this book to be very helpful and soon understand why we refer to it as "The Bible of Vintage Equipment". There are two editions; 1960 & 1963, and since you mentioned that you do your own reg repair I'm sure you'll find them very useful. You can usually find copies available on ebay. Be sure and also check out Bryan's Manuals & Catalogs section on this website; he has some great info and downloads available there. Best of luck with your adventure with vintage gear, and hopefully we'll get a chance to meet you at some of the vintage dive events! Terry

[adairrj]

Welcome Aboard!
VDH Forum is the best place to learn about double hose regs and certainly you will make good friendships!
Cheers,

[BigMike]

Welcome aboard. You will find that there is an amazing amount of knowledge available on this forum. I'm also new to this and have found that if you have a question, you will get an honest answer. I have a DAAM (round label) that I had Bryan re-build earlier this year and I would rather dive with it than any of my "standard" gear. Having the tank/reg properly placed on your back is critical and you will have to figure out what works best for you. I'm a big guy (aka big Mike)and found it challenging at first to get a proper set up. I found a vintage US Divers backpack (not a plastic blow-mold but metal) that works for my beefy build. The VDH BC that Bryan and crew have created is on my list for next year. Good luck with your new endeavor.

[lotthall]

Thanks to all for some very good advice. I was a little confused regarding DAAM's vs. RAM's. From what I understood, the Phoenix nozzle didi make the first stage of a DAAM balanced, but I did not know that it affected the second stage. That being said, would the second stage on a DAAM also be changed over to a balanced type reg or would it continue (again, my understanding may be flawed) to be an unbalanced type reg.

I also have understood that a DH reg "breathes differently." Just for my edification, what is "different?" I am certain given the position of the regulator in relation to the mouthpiece and its position in the water column in relation to the same has a noticeable effect. Again, I am just trying to understrand and not questioning anybody's expertise or experience(s).

Yes, Big Mike, I am not a mini-diver either. I have been mistaken for a small whale in the water and tend to have a lot of "natural buoyancy" as I haev been on a see food diet in my maturing years (every time I see food I eat it ).

Anyway, we will see what we will see. The VDH shop is not so far from my house that I couldn't make a trip down there for facetime advice. Since I work offshore as an HSE/Paramedic, I am off 28 days in between hitches. I am really looking forward to double hose diving!!!

[Bryan]

Thanks to all for some very good advice. I was a little confused regarding DAAM's vs. RAM's. From what I understood, the Phoenix nozzle didi make the first stage of a DAAM balanced,The Phoenix nozzle completely replaces the first stage in both regulators so it really makes no difference which one you use. but I did not know that it affected the second stage. That being said, would the second stage on a DAAM also be changed over to a balanced type reg or would it continue (again, my understanding may be flawed) to be an unbalanced type reg. The 2nd stages in both regulators are identical. Using an HPR 2nd stage when converting to a Phoenix nozzle is the only logical choice.

Phoenix information

HPR 2nd stage

[Bryan]

The VDH shop is not so far from my house that I couldn't make a trip down there for facetime advice.

Sorry but there is no " VDH shop" to visit. There is really nothing I can tell you in person that is not already laid out for everyone on the website.

[SurfLung]

- Like to add my "Welcome" to you... This forum and the availability of parts and instructions from VDH will get you started on a wonderful infatuation with double hose regulators and vintage diving techniques.

[lotthall]

Thanks Bryan, for clearing me up on those points. I am sure I will need more excellent guidance from you and the other members as I transition over to, and learn about, double hoses.

Thanks also, SurfLung, for the welcome. I am looking forward to the journey!

My RAM will be in towards the end of the week!!

[Nemrod]

Welcome aboard.

Nem

[swimjim]

Welcome aboard!!!

Jim

[Herman]

Thanks to all for some very good advice. I was a little confused regarding DAAM's vs. RAM's. From what I understood, the Phoenix nozzle didi make the first stage of a DAAM balanced, but I did not know that it affected the second stage. That being said, would the second stage on a DAAM also be changed over to a balanced type reg or would it continue (again, my understanding may be flawed) to be an unbalanced type reg.

Balancing is most likely the most misunderstood term in SCUBA. The entire purpose of balancing is to keep cracking pressure of the second stage constant throughout the working pressure range of the tank. There are 2 general ways to balance a reg, balance the first stage OR balance the second stage. Balancing both is redundant and unnecessary but it does make good selling BS for the salesman. Balancing the second stage does have some side benefits but thats beyond the discussion here. No DH reg that I am aware of balances the second stage, however some like the RAM do balance the first stage and achieve the desired result. In short, balancing of the first stage keeps the IP of the reg constant throughout the dive and since cracking pressure of the second stage is directly effected by the IP, cracking pressure also stays constant throughout the dive. The Phoenix does add balancing to an unbalanced DA but from a balancing standpoint adds nothing to a RAM. It does however improve some flow characteristics but again that is beyond this discussion. It's major contribution (over the RAM) is the addition of the LP and HP ports. The HPR second stage is a recent develepment. It is a much improved second stage. It can be added to a RAM,DA or a Phoenix equipped reg and it will improve the second stage preformance of all of them but it is not balanced either.

I also have understood that a DH reg "breathes differently." Just for my edification, what is "different?" I am certain given the position of the regulator in relation to the mouthpiece and its position in the water column in relation to the same has a noticeable effect. Again, I am just trying to understrand and not questioning anybody's expertise or experience(s).

The difference is hard to discribe but there is a much smoother flow of air and it just feels different. One thing you need to learn is to use long deep slow breaths as opposed to quick short ones. Since you are moving air through a long fairly large hose the regs works better if you keep the airflow more constant. The feel is different, try using long slow breaths and give it some time to grow on you. Most find it strange at first but grow to prefer the feel as they get use to it.

Yes, Big Mike, I am not a mini-diver either. I have been mistaken for a small whale in the water and tend to have a lot of "natural buoyancy" as I haev been on a see food diet in my maturing years (every time I see food I eat it ).

The good news here is "bioprene" does not shift buoyancy as you change depth so while you may need to add a little more weight to your belt, it does not effect you from a control standpoint like adding more neoprene does so it has no effect on learning no BC diving.

Anyway, we will see what we will see. The VDH shop is not so far from my house that I couldn't make a trip down there for facetime advice. Since I work offshore as an HSE/Paramedic, I am off 28 days in between hitches. I am really looking forward to double hose diving!!!

[8dust]

"Bioprene" !!!!!!!

That's too frigin funny!

Although my waistline crept up over 25 years to massive dimensions, I dropped a lot pretty quick once I got in a mind to, and one of the things I was really surprised about was how much Not Floaty I was, just when swimming in general. Quite a dramatic effect. Oil (or buckets of fat) and water do NOT mix, and beef don't float!