I would like to call it as it is

[simonbeans]

Many of the usual forum participants know me as the "vintage cop". This designation has both positive and negative aspects. For those who try to be as close to orginal vintage-wise appreciate my efforts to keep a purity in the sport and others think I am too picky; after all, "if they would have had it they would have used it". I don't want to debate that last statement but propose that we stop passing around the term vintage in such a way that it has become so diluted as to have no meaning what-so-ever. I suggest that we look at vintage diving as having 3 major catagories:

Vintage Diving Classifications (Using any equipment made or reproduced prior to 1973)

Original
All dive gear is original as manufactured prior to 1973.

Reproduction
All dive gear is original or reproduced to function and look as original. Materials from which the equipment or parts are fabricated can be modern, i.e., silicone diaphragm, hoses, etc.

Eclectic
Dive gear may have some original or reproduction pieces with modern equipment utilized. For example, a period (pre -1973) double hose with a modern mask, fins, wet suit, BCD, etc.

Most "vintage" divers will be classified as Reproduction or Eclectic. Few will be original.

I am mostly in the Reproduction catagory. Occasionally I am Eclectic when I go to the Carribean and tote my SLR camera with double strobes.

However as of late, we discuss all sorts of dive gear as vintage when in no way can they be considered such; wings, isolated manifolds, modified BCs, etc.
I am not suggesting new forum topics, however, some of us more original or reproduction types would rather see discussion on modern equipment be more limited.
Let the discussion and arrows fly.

[Bryan]

Thanks Allan....BTW, I think many moons ago we decided 1975 since USD had the Royal in the catalog till then.

Dealing with absolutes is difficult when people and opinions are involved. Lots of divers come to us burdened with BC's, Spare Airs, Pony Bottles etc but over time most of them shed their underwater burdens and free themselves to focus for a brief while on exploring and discovering all the cool stuff divers get to see.
For a lot of divers it's a huge leap of faith to even strap on a double hose and try it! After that it's up to us as a group to help them join in and try other gear that is foreign or forgotten to them. The learning curve is different for us all

[DaleC]

Allan, I'm one of those "eclectic" divers but I always appreciate the input from others like you who know the history and accurate specifications to gear and techniques from the past.

Having said that, I have to say I like vintage diving because of the lack of labels. I don't want to be pigeonholed as a "this" diver or a "that" diver with all the subtle judgements that go along with it. I'm just a diver who likes to find old cast off gear, put a little love into it, learn the history behind it, and dive it. We all know that converting a tech II BCD to accept a DH or diving a modern drysuit isn't period correct but if that gets someone into using a DH then why not. The addiction will soon follow. For newer generations, the introduction to vintage diving will have to be a gradual process as every diver is now coming out of the modern training, new expensive gear, you're gonna die paradigm. With that in mind I generally think in terms of being inclusive, not exclusive. Setting up labels is just a way of fracturing an already too small community.


For me vintage has to be 3 things or I won't do it routinely. If it isn't these things I'll just become a vintage tourist and once or twice a year plop my money down at some resort and "buy" my experience. As it is, I dive pretty well every week, all year round; so while I may not be 100% period correct, what vintage gear I do have gets very very wet:

Functional: I dive cold water, often alone or with buddies who don't understand vintage gear. When I suit up my gear has to work, be appropriate to the conditions and allow me to have a reasonable chance of bailout and survival.

Learnable: As noted above; I need to be able to learn how to use my gear by myself as there is no real vintage community near by. I usually dive an unknown piece in a known locale first but there is still that aspect of dipping below with something that (up until that point) I only have a theoretical understanding of. If I use modern backups during that process it's ok with me.

Affordable: I'm not rich enough to just buy every piece of equipment
off ebay so I am 100% vintage compliant right off the bat. If that were the case I would probably be a DIR tech diver along with some of my original dive buddies. I also really like the treasure hunting aspect of looking through second hand shops and garage sales. Of course, this means it will take me longer to aquire a complete working set of period correct dive gear but when it does come together I have the real sense of having put it together myself.


Anyways, not knocking your attention to detail; I think it is a valuable asset to the community. But I also think one has to be able to see the community in a wider context and realise that we all have different entry points into the hobby.

[simonbeans]

I agree with some of what you said. But I do get annoyed at the "vintage" or so they say they are when all they have is a double hose regulator tricked out with modern accessories. Wouldn't it be better to say I am a modern diver with a double hose regulator as compared to saying, I dive vintage with a modern this, that, or whatever?
Nothing wrong with eclectic. One of my best friends has always identified himself as such. So what I am saying is call it what it is. A double hose regulator does not a vintage diver make.
Sorry about the 1973 vs. 1975. Missed that somewhere along the way. Must have been out writing tickets in my Vintage Cop uniform.

[8dust]

Geeze…

I guess nobody much likes being told they aren’t as cool as they thought they were.

This seems to come up on a pretty regular basis though...

I’ve tried to leave the labels thing back in Junior High where it belongs, but if there is a real need for it, maybe let’s call folks who just stepped out of a 50 year old catalogue “reenactors”

… it seems to work for all the Civil War enthusiasts down here…

I’d like to just hang out, shoot the breeze, make believe I’m still 25, and post pictures of cool gear and boobs.

Hope I can stay…

[DaleC]

I see what you are saying there.
I think there is a convergence of different entry points that may cause some of this issue. Some guys, like Captain (not to single him out but he is a great example to me in a lot of ways) have grown up vintage diving and/or rediscovered a previously performed skillset so this stuff is probably a bit like putting on an old pair of comfortable shoes. Others, like myself, come from the modern era and are discovering new territory, skills and gear wise, as it were.
My goal is to move more towards the vintage catagory but it takes some time. Yesterday, for example because of the conditions (buddy unfamiliar with vintage, long surface swim, unknown site) I dove my DAAM with all the doodads but no BC. But two weeks ago, I dove my Mistral with no doodads. I did have a pony for DS inflation (she was cold by Jove) but in the summer I will even nix that with my WS and/or the Hydroglove. Another difference is that I am not comfortable monkeying with the DAAM internally (I am not a mechanically minded guy) so I would rely on Bryan to help me with something like that where as with the Mistal, I am committed to learning how to tune and service it myself.
So, this summer, I could be diving eclectic, reliant on others or vintage, self reliant or... I might even be early period correct if I can learn how to clear my ears without pinch pockets (can't do that yet even though I try).

Anyways good discussion and like I said, I for one really appreciate the information you often provide.


Freddo, where's the boobs.....

[8dust]

[JES]

.... Hope I can stay…

You absolutely can! You need only look at the Home page to read what VDH has to say on the subject:

Welcome! We’re glad that you’ve taken the time to visit our site. The Vintage Diving community is an awesome collection of extremely friendly individuals who really work hard to make new members feel welcome, and are always willing to help out their fellow divers. Anyone who shares an interest in anything related to Vintage Diving will feel right at home here. Without question, VintageDoubleHose.com (VDH) is the premier site for Vintage Diving on the web. Although our community is small, we believe that with your help we will continue to grow.

As a member of VDH you’ll be an integral part of a Close-knit Team that works together to promote Vintage Diving and helps to preserve its heritage. There are many different areas for you to participate and lend a helping hand. From contributing on the VDH forum, participating in our annual Vintage Diving Trips, to joining the National Association of Vintage Equipment Divers (NAVED), there’s enough room here for everyone to fit in. So go ahead and jump right in, the diving is great and the fun you’ll have is even better!

As you can see, there's more than enough room for everyone.

[kgehring]

Close... Blue footed boobie.

[simonbeans]

Would you call this vintage?


How about this one?


Both have been labeled as vintage diving. I would rather call it like it is;
ecelectic and original or reproduction. Does it matter what you are? Of course not, however, to someone who lived the era we seemed to admire, then the addition of modern gear dilutes the term. Do your own thing, noone really cares, except for juried events. Just don't profess to exemplify something to the unknowing that is not reality.

[JES]

Would you call this vintage?
....

No way, just look at those split fins...

I for one really do appreciate Allan and what he does to help preserve Vintage Equipment diving in it's purest form. Without question, we would quickly lose the connections to our past if not for those who strive to stay as true to "original" and "reproduction" as possible.

Remember, it all comes back to the equipment and our collective appreciation of it that brings us together in the first place.

[captain]

I can swing back and forth easily between vintage, modern and eclectic. I select my gear based on the dive and what I feel like using on a particular dive although I am more eclectic than either vintage or modern. If the dive is with other vintage divers I go vintage as best I can. Some true vintage type gear such as the smooth skin wet suit I don't have so that might be my only deviation from vintage if I need the exposure protection.
I have to agree with Allen that a double hose regulator does not in and of itself make a dive or diver vintage.

[Ron]

Bottom line up front: My opinion is not to use them.

Rationale:

I suppose seeing as how I do not use a computer, or anything non-repro made after 1975 (or is it 1973?), that would make me a "reproduction" diver? That sounds more Gynaecological than SCUBA related, but so it goes. Everyone has different definitions. I do not feel like we need any categories. Think about how small we are...do we need the labels? The group can come up with whatever it wants, but I am going to keep calling myself simply a diver and/or a vintage diver. I have enough labels in the Army, at my civilian job, while rock climbing, when running, during crossfit, when I'm drunk, etc. Do we really need labels? Everyone else here can (and will, regardless of my opinion...as it should be) do as they see fit, because that's their God given right. I choose to not label. The last thing we need to do is discourage people from joining us, and that's what labeling frequently does. I can already imagine a new guy coming here and having someone tell him, in the tersest of sentences, that he is not even a "vintage diver"...he is eclectic. Doing this will, in my personal opinion, accomplish what attempting to mandate gear configurations does for the events...limit involvement. We should be spending our time figuring out how to grow our niche, not further sub-stratify it into smaller ones. Think of how the terms "original" and "reproduction" label people. One person is first, prototypical, real. The other is recreated, fake, false. I do not personally see how doing any of this will create a net gain for our community. We want discussion on this forum, and people at our events. If people here, new fellas especially, want to talk about their BC or some such thing as they continue their transition toward whatever form of vintage equipment diving they choose to do, maybe we should support that type of discussion.

[luis]

Would you call this vintage?

I am not sure what that is, but it is surely not eclectic … IMO, not with split fins…

Here is the definition of eclectic that I see the most:

2. choosing from various sources: choosing what is best or preferred from a variety of sources or styles
> an eclectic taste in music

Split fins are neither best nor preferred, IMHO.




IMO, the term vintage has just too many definitions (both in the dictionary and in common use) to try to corral it back into single use even by this small group… It will never happen. This debate will never end.

I agree with Freddo with using the term “re-enactor”. It is a more precise description of someone displaying items out of a catalog or of the shelf items of one time period.


I always dive some vintage equipment… I think the newest fins I have ever tried are the Farallon from the early 1970’s. Well actually my old Jet Fins died on me (they started to split) so my Jet fins are new, but vintage design (1965). But, I would not call myself a vintage diver… I am too young for that … I have just been diving some of these old stuff since it was new. And I have been modifying it since it was new.

I don’t put myself in any category, but since I always dive some vintage equipment, if someone says that I am a “vintage equipment diver”, that is not technically incorrect.

Correct me if I am wrong (most of you know that English is not my first language), but the term “vintage equipment diver” to me means a diver with vintage equipment. It doesn’t exclusively say that all the equipment is vintage. I believe that this definition would be shared by most casual observers.


I admire what Allan, Gary, and many other do and have done, but the accurate and precise term is “re-enactor”, not vintage. Vintage is just too broad with too many definitions.

[Ron]

My one caution about the term "re-enactor" is that among some military circles, it has a negative connotation. Civilians go out and pretend to be Soldiers or Marines performing battles in which real people shed their blood. They leave when it rains, they play like it is a game, and nobody really tries to kill them. I for one take slight umbrage at the term, as I do not pretend to dive or soldier, I actually do both of those things. If the group does decide to re-enact dives, then I will decline to participate. I do, however, understand that some of you may have an interest in re-enacting and that is just as much your right to do it and have fun as it is mine to not attend. I will also never address myself as someone "re-enacting" anything. Also, I know it is difficult to hear tone and inflection on the Internet, so let me finish this by saying that I am not disgruntled or anything, and I encourage the continued discussion