What would you say ?

[Bryan]

Diver E-mails me and tells me that the Phoenix I put together for him 2 years ago does not breathe so good and NEVER breathed very good even when he 1st received it back from me after the conversion.
He says he has been too busy to let me know about it and has not said a thing about problems with the regulator till now. Naturally I tell him to send it back and I'll check it out right away. Even after two years I feel bad when a regulator I personally put together is not working correctly.
When it gets here I immediately put it on a cylinder and after a few breaths I decide that given the choice I would dive a Dial a Death before this thing....NEXT I put an IP gauge on it and it's around 140-145 so that is not the problem....Then I open it up and I find this............







Now the diver is PO'd at me because I tell him the maintenance on it has not been done and I won't even begin to work on the regulator till it's 100% clean again and I will have to charge him for all this since I know for a fact I didn't return it in this condition.....Mouthpiece valves were stuck to the wheels, duckbill is melted shut on one side etc. OR since I told him to send it back should I just shut up, clean it up and not charge him for it ?

[capn_tucker]

Man, that reg is really trashed. Obviously the guy doesn't know you can't just spray a double hose down with a little water and throw it in the closet until next dive season.
I wouldn't feel bad at all about telling him I'd have to charge for cleaning it. If he still pitched a bitch about it I'd tell him it's either that or I'll have to return it to you unserviced..

[Tahoeguy]

Bryan, I think that you are correct to charge this diver for the clean-up. The proper washing and drying of dive equipment after every dive is one of the basics. Corrosion and dirt will effect performance. I have had a few issues in the past with a certin phoenix and you took good care of the problem. I have found your customer service to be of the highest standard.

Steve

[Nemrod]

Maybe suggest that he take up scuba with a single hose regulator. Some people were not meant to survive, I am a Darwinist and modern society has subverted the natural order.

This one fellow I have been pool diving with, the instructor for the class that lets me dive with my camera for my Great Wet Lens Summer 2010 Shoot Out Extravaganza, kept telling me those double hose regs are hard to breath from. Well, he broke from his sheeple herding and came over and motioned for my mouthpiece. Being as he was slightly above me ol'Number 1, my round label Phoenix nearly inflated him. You should have seen his eyes.

Nem

[kgehring]

Maybe a nominal clean and tune charge. $40 ??

[Herman]

I think I would send him the photos you posted here. Obviously the reg has been dove a good bit and not properly cleaned or dried. If he agrees to have it cleaned and serviced fine, otherwise it would go back to him as is. As much as I know you like to keep the customer happy and provide good service there are just some folks you will never make happy.

[swimjim]

I'm with Karl on this one. Been down this road before myself. You can't win.

Jim

[Bryan]

I think I would send him the photos you posted here. Obviously the reg has been dove a good bit and not properly cleaned or dried.
.

Interestingly I did this exact thing with my 1st E-mail....

I have had the opportunity to look at it and I am 100% certain that the reason it breathes so poorly is due entirely to bad or no cleaning on the regulator. Perhaps someone borrowed it and didn't rinse it? The regulator internals have salt water corrosion in them, the mouthpiece valves are stuck to the wagon wheel supports and the duckbill exhaust valve is stuck together on one side.
In my opinion the regulator should be torn completely down, all evidence of salt water corrosion removed and then rebuilt with entirely new parts. After that I can assure you that it will breathe on par with the best of regulators on the market. Please see the attached pictures. When you can please advise me on how to proceed.

Thank you
Bryan

[captain]

Looks like it breathed well enough for him to make enough dives with it to get so crudded up.

[Ron]

In IT, we call this PEBKAC, or problem exists between keyboard and chair. That is all on the end user man, you cannot drive a Ferrari over curbs and then bitch when the alignment sucks.

You are being a nice guy about this.

[Herman]

In IT, we call this PEBKAC, or problem exists between keyboard and chair. That is all on the end user man, you cannot drive a Ferrari over curbs and then bitch when the alignment sucks.

You are being a nice guy about this.

Isn't that normally the cause of the ID10T error as well?

[Douchebag]

I'd like to jump in with the consensus here and suggest you tell him that you'll charge for it. BUT...I think you need to think over your motivations. I'll get to that..

Ron, your Ferrari analogy is pretty good. I would consider Bryan's services and parts to be on par with that of a fine automobile. I don't work on my stuff, I send it to Bryan. But I did work at Ferrari of Los Gatos while in school and this exact scenario you mentioned comes up more than you think. You get a car on the rack for alignment (WITHIN the warranty period) and you do it up. The service manager gives the customer a $2000 alignment bill and he freaks. Surprising considering he paid $150000+ for a car and drives it like my wife drives my truck. At that point it's up to the manager's discretion to write it off or pursue it, keeping in mind Ferrari warranty WON'T reimburse the dealer for the costs. It all depends on how good a customer he/she is. Did he buy it here? Does he come in for regular services? Is there potential for him to buy again here based on the excellent service he got? Etc...

Back to the motivation, is this a customer you think would do business with you again? He did buy a Phoenix, will he buy other things? Is there potential for him to buy other things? Is there potential for him to send more service work your way? Is there potential for him to praise your customer service up and down the fora? Will he buy one of the new Phoenixes? Is he somebody you want to make happy or just some jagoff who's business you can do with out? Keeping in mind the community is small...will he bad mouth you and your services to others? Do you want to grow the business to a point where it necessitates you deal with people like this? Or is keeping your business small enough with the current customers enough? Will this incident start you posing a new warranty policy? Or is your word your bond and that's good enough? (By the way, it is for me, but he is obviously different)

The simple answer is charge him. You got bills to pay and babies to feed. BUT, is the small investment worth the long term payoff based on your motivation above?

[Ron]

In IT, we call this PEBKAC, or problem exists between keyboard and chair. That is all on the end user man, you cannot drive a Ferrari over curbs and then bitch when the alignment sucks.

You are being a nice guy about this.

Isn't that normally the cause of the ID10T error as well?

That is correct, or in the OSI model a layer 8 problem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Layer_8

Interestingly, it references the ID10T error as well as PEBKAC.


Douche, I dig you man. As a regulator tech, I hate when someone throws the whole "you didn't fix it correctly" card at me, then I realize that they are the one who screwed it up. Still, you are very wise and very correct.

[Bryan]

You guys all know what a delicate flower I am to begin with so what I am about to say will come as no surprise.....

Every customer that buys a regulator from me or chooses to have me service their regulator or do the install of a Phoenix nozzle in the end the work has my signature on it. And I take it very personal when someone is not happy with the regulator they purchase from me or the work I have done on their regulator does not meet their expectations.
I agree that some people would complain if they were hung with a new rope.......But I do my best to make everyone 100% happy even if it costs me. I often have my mentors on the forum work on and advise me on the problem regulators I run across and will exhaust every resource available to make it right.

Now that you all need a tissue and a hug I will shut up.

I E-mailed the diver and told him I would do the regulator and Phoenix nozzle soup to nuts 100% and return it to him. He could take it diving and then decide what to pay me....

[1969ivan1]

I am not sure when this guy would ever expect to have to pay for a service on his reg? I recall when I was taught the "PADI" way I was supposed to pay the dive shoppe for a rebuild every year even if I had not used the regs? Now, I know the PRAM is far superior to the Scubapro regs that I started with but surely even this diver knows even the SUPERIOR PRAM needs to be rebuilt once in a while!

At any rate your have gone the extra mile for yet another customer as usual. I know you and VDH continue to rule vintage scuba and service.