Vintage hose attachment

[JES]

Ok, maybe someone can answer this question once and for all.

I own a 1958 DA-AM with yellow hoses and a yellow mouthpiece. The hoses and mouthpiece are held together with black nylon clamps and have screws that simply screw into the nylon (vice a nut as on the newer nylon clamps).

Some have stated that in this time period only tinnerman clamps were used. However, I have seen various pictures that show regulators from the 1958-59 period with these old style black nylon clamps.

What is the correct answer?

Here are some pictures from the VSS Online Museum:

1958 DA-AM



1959 DA-AM



1958 Mistral



1959 Mistral

[MK15diver]

The early black plastic hose clamps that you have here came out arond 1960 and were used untill 1964ish. The Tinnerman clamps were used on evrything prior to that and were also used on the Royal Mistral which was technically the only US Divers regulator to use both the yellow hoses and yellow mouthpiece. Oh and sense I'm feeling squirelly the early hose clamps were used turned around so that the screw part was facing your face unlike the later ones that were turned outward.

[Bryan]

The early black plastic hose clamps that you have here came out arond 1960 and were used untill 1964ish. The Tinnerman clamps were used on evrything prior to that and were also used on the Royal Mistral which was technically the only US Divers regulator to use both the yellow hoses and yellow mouthpiece. Oh and sense I'm feeling squirelly the early hose clamps were used turned around so that the screw part was facing your face unlike the later ones that were turned outward.

You are joking right ? Cause you are dead wrong on most of this statement.....

[simonbeans]

Here are the catalog listings for 1959 and 1960.
1959



Detail on available mouthpiece/hoses/clamp 1959


1960


Detail on available mouthpiece/hoses/clamp- 1960


Nylon clamps apparently were not available until 1960 and these were the screw only, no nut type. Prior to 1960 Tinnermans were used. Yellow mouthpieces were NOT available in 1960, but black were in 1959. Thus here is what I conclude:
If you are trying to represent a particular year, then use what was available. Were regulators repaired, parts replaced, most definitely. IMO, just pick a year and use anything that was available then or prior. Therefore, could a 1959 regulator have yellow hoses and yellow mouthpiece and black nylon clamps? Yes, in 1960 or later, but not in 1959 or earlier. Make sense?

[JES]

...... Make sense?

Absolutely, and thank you for the information.

Although clearly pictured in these catalogs, I'm somewhat concerned that catalogs weren't always the definitive source. This fact was clearly demonstrated in the later Voit catalogs with the glaring omission of the Trieste II.

I would love to hear if anyone remembers these regulators and the black nylon clamps "first-hand".

[simonbeans]

You are most likely right. However, with fewer and fewer older divers around, the catalogs are most likely the best resource. When I was doing historical reinactments, we were cautioned on authenticity. We couldn't wish something to be true. Or use the addage, "if they had it, they would have used it." I like to take the best reference available for my documentation. And for me, right now, the catalogs seem to be the most logical.

[Nemrod]

This stuff is hard to get right because most of the stuff we all own is used, second hand, third hand, who knows whose hand and assuming this stuff was used and dived and repaired and overhauled I doubt any of it is original unless it is one of those rare 1,000 dollars units still in the box.

I do know my Pico Mistral had yellow hoses and a yellow mouthpiece, it had plastic clamps which were obviously added sometime later and it has a wing nut clamp with Aqua Lung on it and not the plain wing knob as shown in those picutres and I figure this is because just as now, it's previous owner wanted to use a banjo and so "upgraded" it. Now, I have a Voit Navy with a plastic yoke knob , people switched all this stuff around during the day, what can a fellow do? Tinnermans are as rare as hens teeth as if we don't all know that.

I like Allan's approach, it is logical. A diver in 1966, might well use a 58 Pico with yellow hoses or black hoses and any sort of plastic hose clamps and yoke knobs and such because he would get spare parts from the dive shop/feedstore and that is what they would have and he would not care one iota--it was not vintage yet.

I also know that when my Pico was given me it had plastic clamps--no nuts and there were pieces of brass or copper sheet cut to fill the gap. I still do it that way with thin brass sheet stock. I am not sure they came that way but I have seen others with the copper gap fillers.

Nem

[JES]

Without question, in the absence of other guidance a catalog fills a vital role in our hobby. However, in my humble opinion we must be careful when we start to use them as an "authoritative" reference.

Although it is true that "we can't wish something to be true", the converse to this statement is also true "just because it's not in a catalog, doesn't mean it didn't actually exist".

Allan, for what it's worth, I think you're probably correct.

Thanks again for the information and the images.

[Bryan]

I’ll correct my statement….I should have said that I have worked on/serviced/inspected many regulators that were still in the original box and none of them had the screws on the face/mouth side of the mouthpiece. And no Royal Mistral ever came with yellow hoses or mouthpiece period. Show me some USD literature proving differently and I’ll be glad to eat crow..

[capn_tucker]

"just because it's not in a catalog, doesn't mean it didn't actually exist".

That's for sure! I say that as I'm sitting here looking at my Voit VCR-5, and Voit end reader SPG that were never seen in any catalog..

[Nemrod]

Howabout a pic of that Voit spg. That is exactly the thing, we tend to use the catalogs as or reference lacking anything better most of the time but that is why I asked in another thread about the Voit SPG.I could have sworn I had seen some and yet I don't think they were in a catalog, blue face or black face?

The decals on tanks, yeah, the catalogs show them high on the shoulder but I always recall them being down low just above the boot. We could look at SeaHunt but half the time he had the regulator upside down. Sam is a good resource and some of the other long timers. Allan is right though, sometimes the catalogs are what we have.

Here is something, the brand new round label RAM I scored several years back (non ebay), the one that I got for virtually nothing that was completely NEW was assembled incorrectly. Usually it is the fourth hole we line up with the horn, this one was lined up on the third hole and the label was attached to it to be vertical in that position so it was done at the FACTORY--WRONG!!!!! So, now with it set correctly the stupid label is crooked--ARRGGGGGHHHH. Catalogs, print adv. and that is what we have to go by and the few people like Bryan or Sam or Allan or Greg Barlow who have seen enough to know that is how it was. I put the clamps on incorrect because I prefer them that way.

Where should the clamps be on the cans and howabout the hose seams, where should they fall to be correct? I think the clamps on the horns should be on the back with the screw up but I always put them on with the screw at the top facing forward. The seams, I place the hose seam line at the seam on the front of the mouthpiece and with the hose seams centered on the front and rear of the horn---but---oddly some hoses I have do not like that and want to sit with the seam at the top and bottom with the mouthpiece at mouth level.

Look close and see that the Aqua Master has the horn clamps to the front with the screws up! and the other two models are with the screws to the back and I think up.



Nem

[capn_tucker]

OK, here's my mystery Voit end reader gauge, and as you can see has a blue boot. It is definitely NOT a DS-131, as that gauge was a side reader. This Voit gauge seems most similar to the USD Sea-Div gauge.
I wish I knew what model number, and when it came out..
The gauge came attached to a Voit DS-98 yoke manifold, and was in with a bunch of Voit twin-50s I won on eBay early last year. Someone also apparently removed the plastic covering from the hose, but I'm going to try heat-shrink tubing and see how that turns out..


Edit: Something weird going on with my photos. If you click on the photo it's in color, not B&W!

[JES]

Howabout a pic of that Voit spg. That is exactly the thing, we tend to use the catalogs as or reference lacking anything better most of the time but that is why I asked in another thread about the Voit SPG.I could have sworn I had seen some and yet I don't think they were in a catalog, blue face or black face?

The decals on tanks, yeah, the catalogs show them high on the shoulder but I always recall them being down low just above the boot. We could look at SeaHunt but half the time he had the regulator upside down. Sam is a good resource and some of the other long timers. Allan is right though, sometimes the catalogs are what we have.

.....

Nem

One more thing to remember about the early catalogs is that we are dealing with an artist rendition. This "drawing" may or may not have anything to do with what was actually produced by the company.

This would serve to explain the actual placement of the labels not matching the catalog. For the artist, uniformity and appearance would drive the images they produced for the catalogs not necessarily reality.

[Nemrod]

That Voit guage looks exactly like the USD guage ofthat time, hmmmmm.

I am sure y'all already have these pages:

http://www.calclassic.org/Regulator/aqualung.html

http://www.vintagescuba.com/voit/voitnavy.html

While we are all over the place, anyone else notice that Voit top cans are convex a little bit.Often the USD top cans are concave a bit it seems and the Voits seem to be the opposite. It may be due to the indenstions adding stiffness. Both of the Voit top cans I have show a slight amount of outward convex and they seem to have sharper creases except maybe the last round label USD regs. The round label top cans are stiffer and seem to also conves a bit.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could get the dies for those cases. Some long out of production aircraft have owners groups tha town the tooling and TC. Maybe a owners group for vintage and --just dreaming but it sure would be nice to have those original dies and stamping plates.

If Bryan and Dan and Luis and Captain and others keep this up, we are not far from producing a new regulator if only via seperate parts purchases, a regulator kit so to speak. Don't laugh.

We have talked about this before, Captain I think, but there also seem to be at least three differrent horn lengths, early regs from the 50/60 era were longest and the last round labels seem to be the shortest. I pefer the long horns cans--long horns--get it .

Another interesting thing, the hose clamps on my recent manufacture SeaTec horsecollar BC are exactly like the one inch hose clamps on the horn/hose on our double hosers. I wonder where they get those? They are exactly the same.

Nem

[Robohips77]

50 bucks for the jet air!!!!!!!!!! Man oh man.