Vintage Buoyancy and "Floaty" Tanks

[SurfLung]

More Floaty Tanks...

- I picked this set up for $50... They are pristine inside. Very light weight and only 1800 psi. I posted the story in the Tanks and Valves forum... But they are probably nice and floaty so I'm posting the photos here, too.
- Regarding the ideal suit for Vintage Buoyancy... It turns out the suit I've been using may be either a 2mm or a 3/2mm... Its a Stearns Fleet Farm model. So thin, it just hasn't got much left to compress and ruin buoyancy. I'm kind of amazed at some of the cold water temps I'd gotten away with diving this suit. Numbness helps...
- The 5mm Bare brand suit I talked about above was referred to as "Semi-Dry" because it has gussets or gaskets in the wrists and ankles to reduce cold water entry. There isn't a dive I've used it on yet that I wasn't at least a little too hot.
- I'm thinking a 3mm Semi-Dry wet suit might be the best combination for warmth and minimal compression.
- P.S. Besides the floaty tanks and dumpable weight belt, I've been wearing a Swim-It emergency inflatable vest in a pouch on my thigh.

[Nemrod]

3. A poodle jacket is a long used term for the jacket type BCs that have the fluffy interiors in particular and has nothing to do with a drysuit and is not a vintage device. Being as this is the vintage forum though neither drysuits or BC jackets (aka poodle jackets) are really a vintage equipment subject.


So chill, it is all good.

Nem

Well, actually, drysuits predate wetsuits...
Some were different materials... but even our wetsuits (and even our new hoses) are different material.

In the 60's the Unisuit was around, made out of neoprene, but other drysuits date back to WW-II.

Even valves in the drysuits date to the 50's. The Unisuit of course had valves similar to the most modern valves, but even Cousteau (and US Divers) had "constant volume" drysuits designs in the 50's.

None of them were popular in the Caribbean... and I am guessing they were not popular in Kansas either...

I am not sure my whereabout in 1968 are a vintage topic but it would have been Waveland, Miss. , I have no idea what kind of suits they were wearing in Kansaw at that time. Maybe we need a forum for jokers

Your just jealous because me and M.C. can stay down longer on a tank than can Luis and Christine, har, har, har,

The non vintage tank that seems to behave most like a steel 72 overall is the aluminum 63. It has excellent "floatiness" for when you cannot get a shop to fill your vintage 72s. The practical capacity is similar as well. Almost as floaty as Mike Nelson's balsa set and a whole lot more air.

Double 38s are to die for and I guess I might have to in order to get a set.


Nem

[Chris]

"Even valves in the drysuits date to the 50's. The Unisuit of course had valves similar to the most modern valves, but even Cousteau (and US Divers) had "constant volume" drysuits designs in the 50's."

Luis, do you know witch valves today are similar to witch valves back then. It's kind of my game to tell people their new fancy gear really has come a short ways in such a long time. Of coarse most of them couldn't read a parts breakdown if it was three feet wide and the only think they hear is "wow! did you just get that? I need one."

[Nemrod]

There were "drysuits" of sorts being used in vintage era diving. Of course, but they were not widespread, common or available except for that Latex condom some guys seem into for this purpose. That is a little hoaky but it sorta worked.

My main point is not to mix methods and equipment from different eras without thinking it through. And, do not base what one does from fictional tv shows like Mike Nelson or even Cousteau who was pretty much fictional as well and had I am sure some support divers.

The example comes to mind, inspired by several recent sb thread. Okay a fellow gets a cool new drysuit. He has a stainless plate and a set of those nice HP doubles that are as negative as a tungsten ingot. Cool! The he gets himself a dh reg, cool! Then he reads that the really cool vintage dh divers (like Nemrod ) are diving without a stink'n BC. Hmmm, then, our diver watches a program with Mike Nelson arm swimming around with balsa wood tanks in his skivvies and a rubber knife and he don't got no stink'n BC. I do not need no stink'n BC.

But problem here:

1. No ditchable weight--not vintage technique
2. Drysuit, not really vintage equipment
3. Heavy and negative doubles, not vintage equipment
4. Negative stainless plate, not vintage equipment
5. Diving without a BC because there were not any, vintage technique


Now our adventuous and misguded pseudo vintage diver jumps in the water with this mix of equipment and attempts to do what was really never done very successfully to begin with in the day but now with modern equipment that is hell for NEGATIVE

So, now his suit gets ripped and fills with really cold water. Now our diver is sitting on the bottom with no way to get back up, freezing his hiney off and he has never really been trained in a doff (and don) and so now what?

If there were any successful vintage drysuit divers who actually managed to stay kinda dry, they would not have been using:

1. Stainless plates
2. Negative doubles
3. Non ditchable weight

They would have had, if wise, some means of reestablishing buoyancy in the event of a suit flood, probably by releasing a weight belt and the large stone they had been carrying around for said purpose.

If you are going to kill yourself, make it glorious and hopefully involving fire, not sitting on a muddy bottom freezing.

So, don't be that guy.

Nem

[DaleC]

The arguments about what is vintage and what is not really breaks down once you move out of your own geographic location. Vintage for 1955 Florida Springs or 1955 Horseshoe Bay British Columbia. Trying to pinpoint vintage to a specific "look" is also like trying to saddle a snake. My understanding, from reading many vintage era books, is that innovation, mix and match and DIY were an integral part of the process. It was all purpose driven. Where and when do we stop the clock. If we say the double hose era, or pre-1972, or pre-jacket BC/single hose all of those included drysuit diving.

I think one could dive according to cold water vintage standards if one put an oral inflator on a drysuit. Not that hard really. It would not be vintage "equipment" perse (neither are silicone hoses or DBE's), but you would certainly use vintage diving techniques. Even when I dive with a LP powered DS I keep it quite snug to reduce the amount of weight needed to sink it. I imagine divers of the day would not over inflate as well because they had to do it manually - probably just enough to take the squeeze off so the difference is mainly just how one gets air in and out.

But Nemrod makes a point about mix and matching techniques. When I dive dry I always anticipate a flood or failure that will negate buoyancy and carry a lift bag as a second device (and use it a regularly to stay in practice). Modern or vintage, I avoid negative weighting.

I dive single St 72's and a set of double Al40's. Both work well with my 3/2 onepiece WS and 3 lb's of lead, minimal compression. When I try double 72's I need a horsecollar. Lately I have been trying to avoid the HC for bouyancy (other than a surface support) because I find it wants to push me heads up when diving. I would rather deal with drysuit bouyancy issues than HC bouyancy issues.

But maybe vintage era drysuit diving techniques would make a really good topic to discuss. If no one else does, I may start such a topic later on. right now I'm off to the lab to work on my death trap (er) diving gear

[joeym35a2]

Didn't the author of this thread use mike Nelson as an example?

Chris people on here don't know your diving with 72s and 80s
I think they assume you are using 20 pound negotive tanks

As for dry suits not being vintage I'm pretty sure those divers with big brass helmets weren't diving in wetsuits of course wetsuits aren't really vintage either to be real vintage you need a fireextinquisher a o2 diluter and a sweater on your dives

Also hand swimming works great

As fore floaty tanks I traded my last 80 for a 72
I hate 80s either too light or to negotiate

[swimjim]

Nope, dry suits and their valves aren't vintage at all........

[Chris]

I don't like cold water. I would have rather shoved my reg in the zipper inflate arms or legs or anything that would get me outa there. But I see your point. I had that buoyancy thought in mind today testing my Titan swimaster with no dry suit inflator hose. Had to plan ahead a bit. As far as Mike Nelson, I first began to think something was amiss when I watched him reach up with his doubles on one arm and slam the truck of his car. That was before I read that they were wood.

[SurfLung]

Got a New BARE Elastek 3mm Suit... For Vintage Diving
- The off-the-rack XXL seems to fit me like a glove. The legs are contoured so well they actually slip over my calves and waist like snap-in-place. It's a back zipper but the cord is long enough and has grab tabs at both ends to make zippering much easier. Back zipper flap has a spine pad. Wrists and ankles have no zippers, are a smooth skin-in sealed. Neck is smooth skin in sealed, too. All outside seems have a rubberized bead-seal. Darned nice suit: http://www.baresports.com/en-US/Dive/Pr ... -2012/Mens . There's a good video on the 3mm suit, too.
- My preference for comfort and buoyancy characteristics is a 3mm suit with 3mm hooded vest... So, I got this top-of-the-line 3mm suit... 3mm has been perfect for 90+% of my MN, WI, MI diving these past three years. With this configuration, I have dived my twin 38s with 7 lbs of lead and experienced very manageable buoyancy change as the suit compressed down to 96 feet deep in Fortune Pond. And for regular lake diving... 8 lbs has me floating slightly on the surface and completely neutral between 15-25 feet deep... That's Perfect!
- A Conclusion... This suit is not vintage but, it allows me to dive with the simple vintage buoyancy characteristics I seek: And, my floaty tanks require a significant weight belt even with a 3mm suit. This means for safety I can dump the weights and float without having to dump the tanks.

[Nemrod]

Nope, dry suits and their valves aren't vintage at all........

I assume you will be bringing those to Coz? I will have my camera and gladly take a shot for you.

The "rest of the story" is that the suit in the photo probably worked about as well as the toy flippers he is sporting.

I will stay with what I said. Application of modern technique and equipment such as the negative steel tanks used today with today's drysuits (with BCs) whilst (attempting to) emulating the fellows in that photo could result in one becoming a permeant fixture on the bottom of that quarry. You will need something more than arm swimming to save you.

Arm swimming, Y'all must of learn't that on Sea Hunting. Didn't anyone tell y'all, TV ain't fer real. Heck, we even know that in Kansaw .

Nem

[antique diver]

Nem,
Your points about the dangers of buoyancy loss in case of flooding the thin rubber suits are right on.

I love the comfort of Vintage Diving (no BC) with my Hydroglove suits, but I use them with appropriately buoyant tanks such as 38's or twin 38's (plus a ditchable weight belt)

I enjoy the very same suits while cave diving with my modern steel doubles or side-mounts, but I use appropriate wings with redundant bladders for those situations.

You seem to think these suits are "hokey", but that makes me think you may not have used one enough to discover the right techniques of keeping mostly dry and comfy. They work fine for me, but it took a little practice.

[Nemrod]

Nem,
Your points about the dangers of buoyancy loss in case of flooding the thin rubber suits are right on.

I love the comfort of Vintage Diving (no BC) with my Hydroglove suits, but I use them with appropriately buoyant tanks such as 38's or twin 38's (plus a ditchable weight belt)

I enjoy the very same suits while cave diving with my modern steel doubles or side-mounts, but I use appropriate wings with redundant bladders for those situations.

You seem to think these suits are "hokey", but that makes me think you may not have used one enough to discover the right techniques of keeping mostly dry and comfy. They work fine for me, but it took a little practice.

Your pursuit of vintage technique using vintage equipment with a full and complete understanding is a great vintage topic. Please continue to transfer your knowledge and understanding of these vintage suits and how to dive them.

And never mind my occasional jab at SwimJim or Master Luis .

Nem

[swimjim]

Nem,
Your points about the dangers of buoyancy loss in case of flooding the thin rubber suits are right on.

I love the comfort of Vintage Diving (no BC) with my Hydroglove suits, but I use them with appropriately buoyant tanks such as 38's or twin 38's (plus a ditchable weight belt)

I enjoy the very same suits while cave diving with my modern steel doubles or side-mounts, but I use appropriate wings with redundant bladders for those situations.

You seem to think these suits are "hokey", but that makes me think you may not have used one enough to discover the right techniques of keeping mostly dry and comfy. They work fine for me, but it took a little practice.

Your pursuit of vintage technique using vintage equipment with a full and complete understanding is a great vintage topic. Please continue to transfer your knowledge and understanding of these vintage suits and how to dive them.

And never mind my occasional jab at SwimJim or Master Luis .

Nem

To be jabbed at in the company of Luis is an honor. If one actually takes a look at the constant volume suit, it has exhausts on the head and ankles. That's pretty interesting to someone who actually dives cold water. A design way ahead of it's time! That would eliminate some of the difficulties of modern dry suits. You ought to try some serious diving sometime Nem. You don't have 200 year old wooden schooners in 84 degree salt water. LOL. See you in Coz.

[SurfLung]

- There's entirely too much Jocularity in this thread. Methinks thous (YOUs) dost protesteth-eth too-eth much-eth!
- And YES, floaty Twin 38s are the most wonderful thing a vintage diver could have and those Vintage Divers that have them are really the coolest people... Don't ask how I know, I just do.
- Clarification: Mike Nelson did NOT have balsa wood tanks. Mike was a real diver with big muscles and flinging his floaty 38s around was easy for him. Most of us vintage divers who own twin 38s can do the same thing... It's easy.
- Finally, those son-of-a-guns who are down in Cozumel... While I'm freezing in a northern Minnesota deer stand... Those son-of-a-guns trying out the new Argonaut regulator got SOME nerve making jokes about Mike Nelson's hand swimming! OH! That really sets me off... WAY too much Jocularity here.

[antique diver]

Speaking of 38's, I just counted 17 of them in my stable... I should probably get rid of some! If there's any interest I could start looking at the internal conditions.

There's a few in this pile along with a few smaller ones. There are a few more scattered around the room: