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rhwestfall
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Ice dives (configuration advice)

Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:17 am

If the weather holds, I've got an ice diving cert class at the end of the month. I was intending to "stir the pot" a bit by showing up with either my Kraken or my DA (Phoenix & HPR). The DH regulator is legendary for cold, so it seems the logical choice. In some other discussions elsewhere, it was brought up that it would be best to not use an octo as that essentially compromises the DH resilience as it provides a freeze point in the additional second stage. What say you folks? I know some of you have dove these rigs under frozen water. What/how did you rig for this? And, yes, I will be diving dry.

FWIW, I can sling a separate stage, or possibly use an h-valve if I have enough room to put something on it, but the clearance of the can might be an issue.... If I have the time, I might also be able to get my center & side outlet Sherwood manifold set up on a set of twins, but that is not likely as I'd need a quick hydro on my tanks that are for it....

Thanks for any advice.
Bob

No Longer Awaiting my Kraken.....

swimjim
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Re: Ice dives (configuration advice)

Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:20 am

For starters here's a video for you.... https://vimeo.com/124034771 . You will show up for class with what your instructors say you should have. Otherwise, it's a mute point. A double hose regulator is a perfect choice for under the ice. Especially the Kraken. If your guidelines call for it, you will have an octo. In the real world, that is nonsense. Using an octo under the ice puts that much more strain on the first stage. Not a good idea. Sling a pony with a single hoser you trust. That is what you will donate to your buddy in need. If you have maintained your double hose be it a Kraken, Phoenix, Mistral or a DivAir, it will not let you down. Of course, if you dive a single stage reg you will need a separate pony to run your drysuit.
Ice diving is the safest diving you will ever do, IF done correctly. Set up besides cutting the hole should include shoveling out lines away from the hole with arrows pointing back to it. That way, if for some reason you are parted from your safety line, you can find your way back to the hole. Of course if you do seperate, you are supposed to shove your dive knife into the overhead ice and await "rescue". The divers should be on a line with a "Y" on the end. Each buddy clipped off to a leg of the "Y". There should be a safety diver next to the hole ready to go that has at least fifty feet more line then the primary divers. Ice diving lines need to be connected to a fixed point like a tree or an anchor in the ice. NOT A MOTOR VEHICLE! Warm water should be available in a insulated cooler to thaw out frozen hands and dive gear. A minimum of five gallons is required.
Post dive the ice block is put back into the hole. Poles are erected around the hole and yellow police style barrier tape is secured to the pole. Until the ice block freezes back into place it is a potential death trap and needs to be treated that way. When that is secure, the hot chili and ice cold beer comes out. The day is done!

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rhwestfall
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Re: Ice dives (configuration advice)

Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:24 am

swimjim wrote:For starters here's a video for you.... https://vimeo.com/124034771 .
thanks, fuels the anticipation! I'm hoping the ice develops and stays as the weather has been problematic. We have had issues for the last few years.
swimjim wrote: You will show up for class with what your instructors say you should have.
From a shop that sells split fins, warm water regs, and jacket BCs, I've always been "chastised" in my gear selections (technical and vintage/modern DH and vintage single hose) as the other divers begin to ask me about my gear and it isn't in their wheelhouse... If I bring sound equipment, and dive in safe practices, that is what is important. Yes, the protocol for ice must be obeyed. I could go full modern with my tech rig and doubles, but I'm really wanting to put the Kraken on for this. Not to sound crass, but when I called them so sign up, one of the first comments was "you should wear your dry suit"..... no kidding, really? I never considered it.....
swimjim wrote: A double hose regulator is a perfect choice for under the ice. Especially the Kraken. If your guidelines call for it, you will have an octo. In the real world, that is nonsense. Using an octo under the ice puts that much more strain on the first stage. Not a good idea. Sling a pony with a single hoser you trust. That is what you will donate to your buddy in need. If you have maintained your double hose be it a Kraken, Phoenix, Mistral or a DivAir, it will not let you down. Of course, if you dive a single stage reg you will need a separate pony to run your drysuit.
you have reinforced my stance, thanks!

Obviously, the day of lecture preceding the dives will involve a discussion of equipment, and an intelligent exchange should tale place.
Bob

No Longer Awaiting my Kraken.....

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Bryan
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Re: Ice dives (configuration advice)

Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:39 am

I know it's class but I'd like to have more pictures and a writeup about Argonaut Kraken regulators conquering the ice !!
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

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rhwestfall
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Re: Ice dives (configuration advice)

Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:26 am

I will have a GoPro rolling, and you know I talk about my Kraken!
Bob

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swimjim
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Re: Ice dives (configuration advice)

Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:30 pm

Bryan wrote:I know it's class but I'd like to have more pictures and a writeup about Argonaut Kraken regulators conquering the ice !!
Ice is no match for the Kraken! Yarrrrrrgh!

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rhwestfall
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Re: Ice dives (configuration advice)

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:50 am

With it going to 50 today, I'm wondering if we will have ice. It's been a very mild winter again..... drats! I have another guy offering a class in about a month, but it is a 6 hour drive up into Canada.
Bob

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swimjim
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Re: Ice dives (configuration advice)

Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:36 am

Yeah I hear that. 41 here today, but hanging in the 20's for a couple days after. Myself and a fellow dive rescue guy are in charge of the annual multi fire department ice dive on the 18th. I'm really hoping the current ice holds out. If the ice won't support any weight, it could turn into an ice rescue drill. Boo! Sometime in late March I am trying to organize an ice dive up at Fortune Pond. That is far enough North to be a pretty safe bet. For me that's about a three and a half hour run. It's well worth it though.

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rhwestfall
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Re: Ice dives (configuration advice)

Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:37 pm

Bryan (or anyone else that might have used it) :

Curious about the DSV and ice diving. I'm wondering about the valve freezing in either the open or closed position if wet and exposed to the air...... this likely to happen or be something to look out for?
Bob

No Longer Awaiting my Kraken.....

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luis
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Re: Ice dives (configuration advice)

Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:34 pm

I have used one of my Argonaut Kraken for ice diving and it will always be my regulator of choice.

For alternate air I have used a pony or a two outlet Sherwood twin tank manifold. For the alternate I always used a Scubapro 109 metal second stage and a Conshelf first stage with dry environmental chamber.

I have also used a 109 as an octopus, but that is not a fully redundant alternate air.

I am sure you have heard of the proper ice diving techniques to avoid regulator freezing. Well, I have intentionally violated all of them at one time or another to see how hard it was to freeze a double hose or a metal second stage with a Conshelf. I have done it mostly on the surface under control conditions, and neither my Argonaut or my 109 have frozen or free-flowed out of control. I do not recommend anyone to try this unless they do it on a very control condition and they have a good back-up plan.



You question about the DSV is a good one and will admit that I have not gone ice diving since I have been playing and testing the DSV.

There is no air expansion and associated cooling at the DSV mouthpiece. All the air expansion and cooling occurs in the first and second stage that are on your back. By the time the air arrives at the mouthpiece, the air should not be as cold.

The actual DSV mouthpiece temperature should be at ambient temperature or very close to ambient temperature, therefore there should not be any reason for the surrounding water to freeze on it (while you are diving).

Also, the two moving plastic parts are very smooth and even if some iced form on it when you came out of the water (on to a very cold air) the ice should not stick to much on the plastic surface. I am going to have to test this last statement.

I don’t have any ice diving plans this winter, but I can easily do some testing with water and cold… I have plenty of both. Right now it is 15 degrees outside and we are getting about 12 inches of snow.
Luis

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Bryan
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Re: Ice dives (configuration advice)

Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:47 pm

I was going to offer to do some testing but it's 78 and sunny here....
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

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luis
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Re: Ice dives (configuration advice)

Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:36 pm

I always feel sorry for those poor kids in Florida that never get a snow day off. :lol:


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Luis

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rhwestfall
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Re: Ice dives (configuration advice)

Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:21 pm

Luis:

Take one out of the tub now that it is "saturated", and set it there to freeze & see what the valve does....
Bob

No Longer Awaiting my Kraken.....

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luis
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Re: Ice dives (configuration advice)

Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:46 pm

That was an interesting experiment.

I did plan on setting two of them outside and leave one in the ice water.

I should have shaken the water out of one of them. That was a mistake.

The one that stayed in the water/slush worked just fine, the other two did not.

The ice did not stick to the plastic, but since I left some water in them, the water in the retainer screw slot froze and the retainer screw did not allow any relative movement between the inside and outside cylinders. I left both of them in the open position so they could still be used for diving, but they could not be closed until they thawed in the water.

When I have a chance I may try this again, but trying to shake the all the water out before setting it outside.

I can easily add a couple of small drain holes on the bottom of the outside cylinder to line-up with the slot of the inside cylinder. That would make it very easy to drain any water in the slots. The drain holes would affect in any other way the function of the DSV. I may try it in one of my experimental DSV.

At this point the safest thing to do is just leave it open when you come out of the water and try to shake of most of the water out of it.

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Luis

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rhwestfall
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Re: Ice dives (configuration advice)

Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:58 pm

thanks Luis! In particular concern to me was the fact that there are two dives scheduled. Starting dry, and valve closed, getting into the water should be no problem to open it and use it. Shutting the valve after surfacing, and getting out may pose a freeze potential in the closed position during the SI, thus making it necessary to somehow thaw it for use in dive #2.... getting in with it open seems highly likely to induce a free flow.. It just might be proper to go back to the old style mouthpiece and the rubber plug. curious to see what your ongoing experiments reveal. again I thank you.

Great food for thought.
Bob

No Longer Awaiting my Kraken.....

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