The trouble with Vintage

[Nemrod]

You see, vintage diving is a problem. Unlike modern divers who just have one set of gear, we have dozens. They only have to keep one rig clean and working, with six double hose regs hanging over the coach dripping water on my wife's floor she observes correctly "what a mess you have there". Now they have to be taken apart and tuned and cleaned--nasty seawater everywhere. Currently only my Mistral and number one RAM are fully functional, the rest seem to have developed small trails of bubbles, one from the hookah adapter, one from the first stage phenolic gasket, the other--beats me. I have a pile of fins to clean and yet my trees and grass are dying from lack of attention, my dogs have forgotten who I am. AND, the basement is covered with diving gear--I think I need some more old rubber diving gear and non sorta functional depth guages.

Imagine how simple it would be to dive only one rig, only one wet suit, weight belt always the same, same BC, a computer instead of tables! Oh for the good old days before I got hooked up with you guys. Of course, I notice some of y'all cheat, I see those plastic fins, those computers tucked away, I hear you dhass about that AL Legend. BUT---this is fun, that is what I tell myself, as I was bounced across the bottom of the ocean like a ping pong ball, no BC to save me, no junky beginner regulator like the AL Legend to blow an o-ring, just the sweet DA and it's reassuring "shoooosh, shooooshh" "gurgle, gurgle," twelve inch long knife stabbed into the sand to hold me agaisnt the current while I figure my bottom time, yeah, this is diving, everything else is just pretend like.

Nemrod ( that is Nemrod, the hunter of mythology, not the "a nimrod" as in a jester)

[1stab]

Thanks for the chuckle. I see I'm not alone in my affliction.

I keep reminding mysefl that I must tidy up the basement to make some room for more regulators. The kitchen table looks like a museum.

"What are you going to do with another regulator?," the old lady asks. "I going to dive it, what else?"

[luis]

I posted this in another forum, and I thought this would be a good place to share my thoughts about vintage gear and reliability.



One thing that most (modern) divers are probably not aware is that by design most well maintained double hose regulators are (at least in theory) more reliable that a single hose regulator.

Let me explain:

As we know, from a mechanical stand point a regulator like the Royal Aqua Master is not only identical to the Conshelf, the Titan, etc., but it actually shares many of the same moving parts.

Designers of single hose regulators have gone through a lot of trouble to make some of the first stages environmentally sealed, but all second stages (when they are out your mouth) are exposed to the ambient water with any sand or other particles or contaminants in it. Even when it is in your mouth the moisture in your exhaled air goes over the second stage mechanism (this moisture is a known source of cold water freeze up).

Most double hose by default are environmentally sealed both the first and second stage. If well maintained and working properly, water and contaminants will never reach any moving parts. Again “if well maintained” chances of a freeze up or free flow due to contaminants are near impossible.

In reality, regulator malfunctions are very rare. But, in my experience, sand and other contaminants in the second stage or in a piston first stage is the number one source for a malfunction (on a regulator that has not seen many years of neglect and corrosion).

Now for the down side (the reason for the disclaimer “at least in theory”):

Most double hose are over 30 years old. Back 30+ years ago it was common to use phenolic gaskets and metal to metal seals (hookah port). These types of seals are not always as reliably tight as O-ring seals. The flip side is that in the rare case of an O-ring failure, the leak is much more spectacular that the small trickle from a hard seal.

Yes, the hoses are more delicate and will not last for ever. But, the only time I have seen a good hose fail underwater is in a knife fight with Mike Nelson or one of his enemies (some of Emilio Largo’s guys had trouble too when they tried to tackle James Bond).

[dhaas]

I'll probably be tarred and feathered for this, but can't resist

Luis brings up many good points, but one thing that many Vintage divers don't know about (and refuse to learn about) is that modern single hose models have advanced mechanically to flow more gas. Especially in deep high volume situations.


You likely won't see any modern Navy Divers working to 198' with any double hose regs. The Conshelf XIV, last time I loooked it up was rated for a working diver to 198 in extreme breathing flow (RMV). TO 38F, too, I think!

The sport diver's modern Titan LX version can flow a tremendous amount of air, too, and with a single hose second stage in the divers mouth "feel" like there isn't any stress to breathing. Many brands other than Aqualung can meet these performance specs, too.

For trips where I will dive my brains out, 3-5 times a day to depths up to 130' or so, I'll still be diving my Titan LX. For working dives, my great shape Conshelf Supreme, usable even under the ice is my choice. But even the best tuned double hose reg? No way......

Please don't take this to mean I don't like diving my simple Mistral, even down to about 100'. Hopefully you saw me enjoying the Vintage diving as much as anyone. The best part as James mentions is no BC, simple harness, etc. Like how I started in 1969 .......

Let the flames begin!

Dave Haas

[1969ivan1]

I am getting the TAR who is getting the feathers?

[treasureman]

I got a bucket of Ostrich feather...they sure would look purdy with that tar.

[dhaas]

Hardy, Har, Har

I knew I'd stir the pot with that post......Although there are many of you "closet modern gear" divers in our midst, too!

I'm off to the pool to practice UW photography and will be FREE diving, NO Tank tonight!

Now that's simple diving!

Later,

Dave Haas

[1969ivan1]

You know we love u Dave......We is just ribbin' ya!

[treasureman]

Ok i fess up... i too have a USd pro vider and octo and guages. But i swear I only use them when no one is looking or the current is too fast for the double hose. They can realy beat your brains in during a dive with a fast current.


TAr please.......

[luis]

Hi Dave

I said reliability not performance. Someone could argue that they may be related, but they are not the same thing.

More about performance soon.

[luis]

In subject of performance I will agree that there is some room for improvement. I have some ideas on how to improve the breathing performance of my Royal AM. For starters, I have always been running the IP near 150 psi. When I have more time I may also try other ideas. More on this later.

The development of double hose regulators did stop almost 40 years ago, for both breathing performance and conveniences like pressure ports, exhaust valves, mouthpiece comfort, etc.

As we know, we will always have the pressure differential handicap, but the effects can be minimized.

In the 70’s I mostly dove a very well tuned Poseidon Cyklon 300. I also had a great Scubapro Mk 5. Now I also own a Scubapro D400 (similar to Christine’s) and several Scubapro Mk 5’s with balanced second stages. I haven’t tried many of the other new regulators, but I can’t imagine that any of them can perform much (or any) better than my Scubapro balanced second stages or the D400. That being said, I haven’t seen the need for using a single hose regulator since I found parts for my Royal (I didn’t have a working duckbill for close to 30 years). Early last summer I found this website and VSS.

Since early last summer the only time I have used a single hose regulator was in the swimming pool. As long as we have a limited supply of rubber parts, I will not take my hoses, mouth piece, and duckbill into water with chlorine.

I often use a modern octopus, BC, fins, mask, and semi modern gauges, but I like the performance of my Royal. Not having bubbles on my face, more than makes up for the slight breathing performance difference.

[1stab]

The Conshelf Supreme has a lower IP (125 +/-5) to help reduce the chance of freeze-ups. Like Luis said, you can run the IP of a Royal, especially with the nice blue teflon HP seats, up to about 150 psi with no problem, no freeze-ups. Couple that with control and swimming position, and there is no contest.

That being said, the Conshelf series are great regulators. For recreation, if I'm not on a Double, I'm on a Conshelf.

[duckbill]

I'll probably be tarred and feathered for this, but can't resist
Dave Haas

Dave,
Old Chinese proverb say:
Man cannot find tar or feather while head in sand.
When head out of sand, no need for tar or feather.

O.K. I made that up

[Nemrod]

I have to agree with 1stab. I have spent a lot of time fooling with my Royal Aqua Masters and if and when Luis gets those new nozzles out I may experiment some more with one of my nozzles--BUT--dhass--I will put my number one RAM up against your girly man, sissy, plastic Legend . It is effortless at 130 feet, effortless at 150 feet, it ain't even serious at 80 feet. You need to put your Mistral away and get the real deal, a Royal Aqua Master and let Bryan tune it for you (I don't work on regulators except for mine). You might also lower your tank a bit and learn to swim to the side---in this position it pumps the air to me, I could not over breath it if I wanted to. Yeah, the 150 IP, number one RAM is set there. The other two at 135.

Besides, after my RAM whips up on your Legend , I will sick my pit bulldog Tekna all metal T2100 on it. It just loves to kick sand and stir trouble , King Kong could not over breath it and it is twenty eight years old I think, just a young thing.

I just don't see a sport dive circumstance that a Royal Aqua Master cannot do, mine has octapus, LP, HP, what more does it need? I would not use air integrated even if I had a computer, that is not Hogarthian, and puts to much into one basket, nope, B&G SPG for me (brass and glass) on 22 inch hose clipped to left waist D-ring.

I think single hose advantages are mostly "urban" Legend (pun---ha--ha) .

Nemrod

[Nemrod]

To be clear, I can and do use my RAM with a modern Hog style BP and modern wing, using either doubles or singles with either dual regs or an octapus on either seven foot hose or 40 inch hose with swivel with high pressure steel tanks at 3,500 psi or aluminums at 3,000. This rig can accomplissh virtually any sport or tech dive within the realm of non professional diving at any depth, even below 200 feet, that a diver should be at without surface facilties. If a regulator can perform at 400 feet that is fine but none of us are going that deep, at least not and return alive .

BTW, I think the Titan is mostly a Conshelf first stage and a RAM is just a double hose Conshelf

I am not using nitrox now but I am positive I can clean my RAMs for nitrox use should I desire to do so.

Nemrod