Phoenix HPR second stage

[Bryan]

The response to the HPR has been fantastic and I couldn't be happier. I appreciate your feedback Greg......

Luis and I were on the phone for close to two hours last night discussing details of the next evolution in double hose diving we currently have in progress. I'm happy to say the HPR is part of it

[macado]

Installed my Phoenix HPR last night(well..the regulator doesn't have a Phoenix installed so does that make it just an DA-Aquamaster HPR?

Installation was very easy, especially with instructions given by Luis on here. I'm looking forward to testing it out this weekend. I can see how Herman's tool would have made the process even easier so maybe that's something I will invest in.

I blocked off one of the side ports to hopefully improve venturi and lock the second stage in better from rotating as it seems the nylon washers were a bit too thin to hold the second stage securely?

I installed it on a rebuilt DA Aquamaster which will hopefully get the Phoenix upgrade when they're back in stock.

[Gilldiver]

Got my HPR yesterday and put it in to my PRAM which is actually a DA with a first generation Phoenix nozzle this morning. The first thing I found out was that last fall I didn’t do a great job of rinsing in the cans, so I took the cans off and cleaned everything up a good bit.

Installation by Luis’s method is easy but the use of the 2nd stage adjustment tool would make it a lot easier. On my body the HPR has to be backed off about 1/3 of a turn from tight in the body in order to align the exhaust hole with the can horn. When assembled with the plastic washers I found that there could be some play with the new diaphragm yoke which might let the yoke contact the 1st stage adjustment screw cap. I’ll look around to see if I can find some larger plastic washers that hold the HPR nozzle a bit tighter or try what Captain did with the old supports to hold it. Maybe a plastic washer I can put under the HPR nozzle?

I ordered a new Mistral diaphragm and installed that also.

I have the IP set to 145 psi and as hard as I try by mouth can only get a max drop on the IP gauge of 10 psi on a tank at 1500 psi. Using a SCUBAPRO 159 2nd stage off of the Phoenix I get the same drop by mouth and maybe a 13 psi drop by pressing the purge button fully. So, the new HPR 2nd stage is at least as good as the single hose 2nd stage. As for ease of breathing on the bench, the DH mouth piece and the 159 are just about the same with the 159 set at the hairy edge of a free flow. The only real difference is that the temp of the air from the 159 is cooler than from the DH as the 159 is doing the adiabatic cooling almost in your mouth vs. a DH doing it behind your head.

[luis]

Got my HPR yesterday and put it in to my PRAM which is actually a DA with a first generation Phoenix nozzle this morning.

Hi Pete,
BTW, considering that with the installation of the HPR and the Phoenix you only have 6 original parts (7 if you include the original label), IMO it is kind of a stretch to still call it a DA. In any case, the moment you install the Phoenix it became a Royal (a balanced regulator).


I have found that if you push the washer tight against the second stage body and then tighten the screw, it holds the body good enough. There is a little bit of play since the washer is round, but that should not be an issue.

If the second stage ever rotated a bit, the back of the lever should be high enough that it should not interfere with the first stage adjustment screw. With the prototypes I was using plastic rivets with a long back that I had to cut, but the production plastic buttons have a very short back piece.

Macado, if a single washer is not tall enough, you can use two washers under the head of the screw. But, I am thinking that you may have unscrewed the second stage more than 180 degrees to line up the venturi nozzle.

Bryan and I have been talking about a new square washer to hold the second stage tight and avoid any play. The hole in the washer will have the same clearance that the existing hole so that you can push the washer tight against the second stage body, but the square washer will have a flat long edge to firmly hold the second stage.

The washer will be thick enough to provide a good contact surface even if the second stage body is back out a full turn or more.

As I mentioned, I didn’t find the little side to side play (of the second stage body) to be an issue and it should never cause any problems, but I can understand the concern.

Bryan should have the new square washers available soon.

Notice the picture below of an early prototype. In that prototype I could not screw the body all the way in and I ended up using two washers.

[usddude]

Since I have moved most all my gear is in a storage unit 100 miles away. I cannot find any regs yet in there. My Phoenix is probably in the very back I got my HPR friday but the only reg I have right now is an unrestored DA aquamaster.

Question: I wonder how much the HPR will improve the unbalanced DAAM? Any feedback from someone with a DAAM HPR I will appreciate.

Steve

[simonbeans]

Definitely can't hurt. DA AMs are not the best anyway.

[usddude]

Hello Allan. 35 years of diving I have never used a DAAM. Plenty of Conshelfs, Calypsos, RAMS, PRAMS, and lots of single stage dh like the Mistral, Spiro Royal, Streamair and Jetair, plus the FX50. So the DAAM IS new territory for me...thanks

Steve

[swimjim]

An HPR would definetely improve a DAAM. I plan on using them in my stable when the cash comes available!


Jim

[macado]

Question: I wonder how much the HPR will improve the unbalanced DAAM? Any feedback from someone with a DAAM HPR I will appreciate.

Steve

I can sort of answer this. I installed my HPR on a DA Aquamaster without a Phoenix nozzle. Once the new Phoenix nozzles are in this regulator will most likely be upgraded to a Phoenix but for now it's a DA-Aquamaster HPR.

I believe it definitely improved the breathing on this regulator. I didn't do any actual scientific testing (e.g. checking with magnehelic, etc) but I did a nice 45 minute dive on Saturday and it worked great and I was very pleased with the results.

I ran my drysuit off the hooka port and used VHD backplate without a wing and had the cans very low on my back.

I was volunteering at the DUI Demo Days (aka DUI Dog Days rally) at Stage Fort Park in Gloucester, MA and got a chance to test a couple nice DUI drysuits.

A lot of people were interested in the regulator so I told them about VHD. Showed them the new second stage.

[SurfLung]

- I encountered the same issue with the Venturi hole not lining up. I flipped the lever and tried again but this time it was too loose. So, I flipped the lever back to original and screwed it in as far as it would go by hand. Then, I put a wrench on it and it tightened the rest of the way to line up the venturi with the hose. There is no wobble and the side screws probably aren't needed to secure it. Hopefully its not too tight... It seems to work fine.
- Would it be an acceptable procedure to use some sandpaper, face up and flat on the bench. So that you could polish the bottom of the HPR and remove ever so little material and custom fit the HPR to line up the Venturi securely? I've got two more HPRs to install and am thinking of trying this.

- I finally finished the harness for my VDH backplate w/OxyCheq BC. I plan to test the Phoenix HPR vs my regular Phoenix using the same reg positioning and back plate. We'll have Friday afternoon and Saturday at Fortune Pond (May 18-19) and I'd like to try the basic HPR configuration, then install one of the venturi blocking washers the next day to see how that changes the breathing.
- This HPR breathes real smooth in the shop but, I have to say I'm intentionally trying not to OVER-EXPECT... My Phoenix regs breathe awfully well already and it will be hard to improve on them. I usually try not to over exert myself underwater to keep breathing easy. This time I will intentionally work harder and create more demand on these regs. Ah Yes... The SurfLung HPR torture test...
- The regs will do fine and I'll be the one that's tortured!

[USdiver]

Bryan and Luis,

I want to complain about the new HPR second stage, or at least about y'all supplying one to Greg Barlow. As anybody who has ever been diving with Greg knows he has an at rest SAC approximately the same as that of a hibernating prairie dog. Supplying any innovative equipment to him that would DECREASE his respiration effort only goes towards making his already too long bottom times that much longer. Yesterday I went diving with Greg at one of our local quarries. The water temperature was 43 degrees, the depth 50 feet, and old Mr. Never-breathe had his HPR equipped Voit Navy Phoenix. I got a chance to breathe it topside, and it was impressive, at least as good as anything I've ever had the pleasure of trying in my 35 years of scuba diving. Anyhoo, to make a long story short, Greg submerged with another diver and I and just put us both to shame. We managed to stay down about 45 minutes in the cold water before we burned through our singles, while Greg was just getting started. I think the HPR should come with a warning label that states its use with any tank larger than a bail-out bottle may cause acute embarrassment to dive buddies.

The HPR represents some very nice work and a real step forward in two stage double hose technology. Think I'll be ordering one or two for my Phoenix equipped Aqua Master and Navy. I can't wait to see the new regulator that VDH is working on, if it breathes anything like the HPR we are entering a new golden age of vintage equipment diving.

[Herman]

I would not suggest modifying the HPR. While doing the prototypes for it, I noticed that some of the reg bodies I have were a little tight as well. What I believe is happening is the lower threads in the body are just cruded up. If you look at the original nozzle you will see it only has 2 or 3 threads and those are middle to top of the nozzle so the lower threads are virgins and may be a little tight.....leave it where you have it and you should be fine. You never want to force something in but some times you do need to encourage it a little....I really need to quit typing before I get in to deep....

That better Luis?

[luis]

- Would it be an acceptable procedure to use some sandpaper, face up and flat on the bench. So that you could polish the bottom of the HPR and remove ever so little material and custom fit the HPR to line up the Venturi securely? I've got two more HPRs to install and am thinking of trying this.

I do not recommend doing that. That will ruin the chrome plating in that area. The plating provides corrosion protection.

Unless something is way out of tolerance (as in the regulator main body) the second stage body should not bottom out inside, at the bottom of the threads (near the volcano orifice).
The body should bottom on the shoulder (on the top of the threads) against the top surface of the regulator main body.

I recommend you follow the step by step procedure that I wrote on page 5 of this thread. That should help you determine when the second stage will bottom out and which venturi port is the next closest one. Then, after full installation and nozzle alignment, lock it with the washers and locking screws.

[swimjim]

DA and Royal(same difference) second stages never line up when they are bottomed out. They don't need to as the LP seat creates the seal. Just back them off so the orifices are properly orientated and run in the screws and washers to keep the body (of the second stage) in proper alignment.
Cranking them down tighter is a rather bad idea as we're working with brass here. A sure recipe for failure. Just my honest opinion.

Jim

[SurfLung]

... What I believe is happening is the lower threads in the body are just cruded up. ....

This makes sense. What I had before tightening seemed too wobbly to maintain a consistent adjustment.

...I recommend you follow the step by step procedure that I wrote on page 5 of this thread. That should help you determine when the second stage will bottom out and which venturi port is the next closest one. Then, after full installation and nozzle alignment, lock it with the washers and locking screws.

Ah yes... The old, "Check the fit before you assemble it" trick... Thanks to all for the info and suggestions... I was careful and gentle on this one but, I will have all of your considerations and instructions in mind as well for the next two installs.