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tripplec
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It's only as expensive as you want it to be

Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:10 pm

My pimary reg is an old hand-me-down daam from my grandpa(although totally upgraded). My safety second (for the new guy not pictured) is a corroded 109 from the dive shop garbage box(rebuilt and upgraded). My tanks are mis matched, my bands home made. I May not be able to change my deco profile, but my cheap computer runs the same algorithm as an expensive one. My manifold, a $10 cheater bar from the lds garbage box again. With the exception of multi gassing deco dives, im doing the same dives as the guy that has the industry required isolation manifold, twin matching top of the line regs and the new hotness computer.
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swimjim
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Re: It's only as expensive as you want it to be

Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:30 pm

Sweet! That works. You probably have better trim then most divers too. :wink:

crimediver
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Re: It's only as expensive as you want it to be

Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:27 am

I have picked up a majority of my dive gear second hand. I have been buying gear that way since 1967 when I bought my first Voit 50 Fathom. I have gotten some great deals. I own over 70 scuba cylinders and why I have that many I have no idea. I just buy them if I see one really cheap. I have paid as little as 4 dollars for some and have been given many of them. About 5 years ago a co-worker wanted to try diving for him and his son. The LDS wanted to sell him a dive package for $2,200.00 each. It was more than he could afford so he passed. He later told me about that experience and I was able to set him and his son up with good, serviceable gear. I was able to equip them with everything they needed to dive for a total of $400 . That was 4 tanks, two sets of Conshelf 14 plus octos, knives, weights, to older but serviceable BCs ,etc. They bought their own wet suits and masks. Years later they are diving a lot using most of that gear and are very happy with it. Like most divers they will pick up something they want or like better but the point is you can dive just as well and safely without having to buy the newest plastic marvel on the market.. In the 80's I almost sold a bunch of my old tanks like steel 72s and some double hose regs as it was just old gear. Now it is vintage gear and I am so happy I did not sell it. It is worth more to me than the latest gear out there.

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tripplec
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Re: It's only as expensive as you want it to be

Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:22 pm


crimediver wrote: The LDS wanted to sell him a dive package for $2,200.00 each.
I dont understand why dive shops cant figure out they are LOOSING probably half their customers by not selling used still serviceable equipment. I only picked up diving because my cousin and I picked up two sets of free gear. My first dive light was a walmart led light sealed in a Foodsaver bag. Now, five years later, I look at my credit card statement and remember how cheep I got into diving.

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h2operations
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Re: It's only as expensive as you want it to be

Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:10 pm

I was just on a boat dive in which the DM told my 12 yoa son I needed to get a new reg since mine looked old. My son told him " Sir all due respect it's not old it is well experienced".
I think the industry has lost it's vision......... Maybe a $280.00 mask will clear it up...

Thank you
Long Live Vintage Divers!

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Ron
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Re: It's only as expensive as you want it to be

Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:47 pm

Here's the only question I have on your setup Chris:

If you have a burst disk failure, tank valve o-ring failure, cheater bar failure, tank valve face o-ring extrusion, or regulator failure at 200 feet, can you safely ascend on this gear and do all your deco without running out of gas and dying?

If the answer is no, then you are cutting corners. It doesn't matter how fancy your gear is, or how much it costs. It does matter if your risk management is good, and if you have enough training and experience to plan enough contingencies to survive.

I see at least 3 ways you could kill yourself on a dive like Randall and I do with the gear you have if you had a failure. It's not new gear or good skills. That's called a false dilemma. You are essentially saying that you can either have old gear and good skills, or new gear and no skills. It's both. You want the right gear, regardless of age or cost, and enough experience and training.

It has nothing to do with your income level. It has everything to do with your safety. I had 21 minutes of deco yesterday at 20 feet in 45 degree water. Without accelerated deco it would have been 56 minutes of deco. Doing it all on air (which I wouldn't) with no trimix or EAN50, it would be 50 minutes of deco. That's in the realm of If you get a leak and you cannot isolate it, then you die. That's no bullshit.
InkedIMG_0365_LI.jpg
Besides you can find an isolator manifold on Ebay for 75 bucks. Just go buy one. At some point, you are doing this on purpose just to be different, and that's totally fine. Just don't make it some sort of self righteous thing. Just be honest that you are diving without contingencies, and that if something happens you will most likely die. Acknowledge that lots of people won't dive with you that way if you put yourself into an overhead environment and rack up deco.

As long as you are intellectually honest with yourself, that's what matters.

From my perspective, I don't spend money just to spend money. I spend money on my gear because I view it as the bare minimum to make 200 foot dives with significant deco obligations, and to not risk killing myself or my buddy. I make every effort to go home to my wife alive. My dive yesterday was 82 minutes long. If I would have lost my deco gas, or my computer/backup tables, or if I would have made a mistake, I would have died. 21 minutes of omitted deco is most likely "dead before you get to the hospital" amounts of omitted deco. I bring 2 computers, 2 masks, and isolated doubles because I truly feel, after doing detailed analysis, that it's the only safe way to do dives like this.

This isn't me bullshitting on the Internet either. We see each other periodically. If you want me to show you all the failure points in this setup, I'd be happy to do so. I'm not saying this to crap on you either. You are a hard working guy, you are funny, and you are fun to have around. I just don't want you to think that this is a particularly risk averse way to dive, and also for anyone who reads this on the Internet to think that this is a risk averse thing to do.

You could do this safely with an isolator manifold, 2 quality first and second stage regulators (no matter the cost), and two sets of waterproof notes with no computers. At some point, what you are you doing is not about cost, it's a choice predicated on some sort of other thing I'm not sure I understand.

You can be thrifty and still be safe. It currently appears to me you are emphasizing cheap, but not at all emphasizing safe. You have 4 kids. Someone owes it to you to be honest with you. What you are doing, in my opinion, is not super safe.

I should also be intellectually honest and admit that I have often done air deco dives with a double hose, no BC, a wetsuit, and a single outlet manifold set of doubles. When I do those, I bring a float and hang a bottle to do my deco, just in case I have a gear failure. That way, I can buddy breathe up to the fifteen foot stop, and do my air deco the old fashioned way. I don't do 50 minute decos this way though. I do like 10 minute decos this way. That's straight out of the text book for 1965 though:
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The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

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tripplec
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Re: It's only as expensive as you want it to be

Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:58 pm

That might be the point coming from my mouth Ron, but its not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to stay somewhere close to aproved recreational diving and the people that tell you what you "need" or you will die. Obviously with my doubles Im going to exceed the no deco a bit. All but one of our dives that went into deco had a deco at shallow depth for less than 10 minutes. I had brought a pony bottle for that consideration of a gear failure, but Randall and I decided to save truck space and just stay within reach of each other. Which we didnt do verry good at. The other dive certainly was not done safely, but I didnt want to use it for my rant. I also had my isolation manifold and two sets of single hoses in the truck incase we decided to do a deep dive without Logan. Our discussion last summer on safety and future certifications was the reason I purchased that isolation manifold for my 100's with the anticipation of future tech diving. My slam is aimed at the people that are going to say my old well maintained mis matched first stages on my isolation manifold aren't good enough because they don't shine with the glint of $700. Reguarding air diving, Ive known several people that dive computers $700-1000. The no-deco/deco times have all been within minuites of each other. I've bought four computers, three of them under $300. Even though my computers are within minuites of theirs, mine must be by popular opinion junk, based on the price tag. Last time I dove with my aunt, it was in a section of the lake that got no deeper than 25' and 70 degrees. Being the proper way to dive she and her husband had every piece of gear they owned on including dry suits with thermals and every hose conected. Swimming in my shorts with a vdh plate and my Voit 50 shouldnt be out of line to anyone with some common sence. My point is about the people that cant tailor their gear to a dive because they were taught everything must be the same every dive, all equipment must not be old, deviation from flight plan is unacceptable, and any gear purchased before Y2K needs to have an update or it will quit working.

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Ron
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Re: It's only as expensive as you want it to be

Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:48 pm

I have to agree with you in that it is a little weird how some people seem to only be able to dive one way. Don't get me wrong, when I can dive in shorts with a doublehose and J valve, I do. When Portage used to be open, I used to stay until it got hard to breathe, then just swam up.

I used to DM on a boat where a guy would dive a pony bottle and drysuit in 80 degree water for 40 foot dives. Every single dive, ever...pony bottle and a drysuit. Some things are totally foreign to me. I always bring the minimum load out for my risk level. I'm definitely with you in tailoring the gear to the situation.

Which reminds me. Once the water finally gets warm we need to dive Crescent in doublehoses old school with J valves and tables, and hang a bottle. No SPGs, no computers, nothing. Just some dive tables, doublehoses, double 72s, and a bottle at 15 feet. The main shelf at Sledgehammer at Lake Crescent is @ 140 or so, and that's a great dive. You can get a 15 minute bottom time, only owe 16 minutes of deco at 15 feet, and have a great time. We could always hang an oxygen cylinder at 15 feet and just do 6 minutes of deco too. It's not diving in your shorts, but it's about as close as it gets here.
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

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tripplec
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Re: It's only as expensive as you want it to be

Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:08 pm

I would love to, Ron. Would have liked to join on the dive yesterday too, but there was no way I was driving another 18 hours even if I could get off work.

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Ron
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Re: It's only as expensive as you want it to be

Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:13 pm

We have to get down there and do Clear Lake as well. I'm not sure how long the dives will be if it's 43 degrees, but I'd love to do that in vintage gear as well. Maybe camp somewhere around there. I'd have to bring a pointy stick though, as Oregon doesn't honor my carry permit.
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

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tripplec
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Re: It's only as expensive as you want it to be

Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:25 pm

My temp guage always said 39 at clear lake. For a wet suit dive, my 20cf sounds about right. If I get the trailer built for behind my motorcycle, im planning a diving motorcycle trip this summer. A different spot on Clear lk was going to be one of my spots.

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Ron
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Re: It's only as expensive as you want it to be

Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:13 pm

39 degrees has to be close to the coldest water I've ever seen. We are going to need to do that one in summer for sure.
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

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tripplec
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Re: It's only as expensive as you want it to be

Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:54 am

You know Ron, Ive been thinking about some of our conversations. How I rant on dive shops for teaching deviation from flight plan is unacceptable, and if you think on your own instead of doing it by the book you will die. And how you've commented I'm being a bad example for newer divers, and think you're more right than me. I often forget I ended the age of knowing how to start a car with a manual choke, and to know what it means to say "It's flooded, hold it open". I ended the age of remembering the movie The Adventures of Nattie Gann. I ended the age of diskmans and getto blasters (the ones with removable speakers). Ever see anyone plug their smart phone into the car with a cassette tape adapter? I ended the age of hunters ed shooting bb guns in the class room. I ended the age of mowing lawns as a kid for money. I ended the age of chipping ice out of the freezer. Yes, I'm thinking I should probably stop harping on people for not using practical logic and wait for them to come to me when they start to wonder why the contraption on my back hasnt killed me as per the dive shop said it would.

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SurfLung
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Re: It's only as expensive as you want it to be

Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:29 pm

- Our friend and Hydrotestor Bill Mathies of MN School of Diving is over 80 and finally retired last year. I bought his book... Self published bunch of stories of his diving exploits since the late 1950's. He did alot of ice diving for vehicle recoveries and drownings and wrote about it. He says that under the ice, the water doesn't have thermoclines anymore. It settles at 39 degrees from top to bottom.
- When we dive deep at Fortune Pond, we go through thermoclines and it can get as cold as 39 degrees down there. (In fact, my computer has registered temps as low as 37 degrees at Fortune.) After reading Bill's book I realized that we are essentially "ice diving" with regards at least to the temperature. It's surprising what you can get used to.
SurfLung
The Freedom and Simplicity of Vintage Equipment and
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