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Discussion of diving methods and equipment available prior to the development of BCDs beyond the horse collar. This forum is dedicated to the pre-1970 diving.
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Ron
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Re: What to do next?

Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:56 pm

Also who is this person?
Capture.JPG
Because he seems to be having some conversation about locking VDH and importing it to Scubaboard and as far as I know I'm the only one with credentials to the forum besides Gangesh. Maybe I'm wrong though? But I was fairly certain that me, Bryan, and SlideArts were the only people with access to our codebase.

Because don't get me wrong here, if there is something already in the works I can certainly bounce. At this point Gangesh from SlideArts and I are the only people keeping this running and if someone else is going to do it I'm happy to move on to other projects.

Who is "Tbone?" :lol:
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The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

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luis
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Re: What to do next?

Wed Jan 04, 2023 7:11 pm

ScubaBoard has offered to archive all the content of VDH (in a searchable form) so it is not all lost like what happened to “The Deco Stop” and “Rebreather World”.

No one is trying to take over VDH, but there is a concern that when the bills are not paid it can all disappear, like it did for those two very useful and very important web sites (for the tech world).

This is just an option to preserve all the posts and history from VDH.

No one is doing anything without Bryan’s sister permission. But everyone want to preserve the VDH content.

At this point, AFAIK (and I know very little) this is only an offer to preserve the content. When tbone posted that, (in November 22) there seemed to be an urgency to preserve the VDH website (based on previous experience with other sites), but from what I have heard it is not as urgent.

I am bit surprised that you haven't heard anything about this option.
Luis

Buceador con escafandra autónoma clásica.

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Ron
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Re: What to do next?

Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:58 pm

Hi Luis,

Nobody has spoken to me directly about preserving or moving the site. Gangesh and I are basically just keeping it running for free. I presume someone is paying the hosting fees? I believe the Pennington family wants it to go to Scubaboard.

A bunch of randoms have spitballed what to do with the site but that’s about it. I suppose Tbone is probably one of the randoms, but I’ve never spoken to him unless he operates here because I don’t have a scuba board account.

That’s about all I know.

I'm going to do a full backup of the site tonight and stash it in Google Drive. The backup is 4.4 GB and I'm willing to share it with any of the other administrative staff of VDH if you guys also want to keep a copy. I keep it and Slide Arts keeps it too.

Honestly you have to be kind of bad at IT to lose a website. I'm not sure how Deco Stop or Rebreather whatever worked but if they lost the code someone was simply bad at their job.


Ron
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

BigSwell
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Re: What to do next?

Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:49 am

Ron:

I was quite active on RBW (rebreatehrworld) and it's still online BUT you can't post there now. It was a weird convoluted situation. It was sold by Curt Bowen to the guy who owned ADDHELIUM in Florida, then he did some shady side business stuff (involving ITAR, not my place to get into that) and it shuttered with a federal lawsuit. The wayback machine had it backed up and someone went ahead and it seems paid the hosting fees. During that time it was overwhelmed with SPAM like I've never seen on a forum, I mean hundreds of posts per day it seemed. So it was locked up and preserved as a "resource", my login credentials still work and I can still find posts and images I posted. I have no idea who is in charge or managing now as they had a bunch of administrators with keys but no new posts are allowed now. I think the Deco Stop had a similar problem, with a guy in Oahu who had a rebreather shop/ service and got caught up in a death of a student (USN guy stationed there) and a scam taking people's $$$. I could be wrong about this but I remember a bunch stuff flying around about the student's death and the instructor being a crook, he essentially got flogged off the internet and DecoStop vanished. His business was sold to someone on the East Coast and they tried to revive it, not sure if it ever happened, I was never a member of the DecoStop. I can send you links if you are interested, it was a scuba soap opera if I've ever seen one!

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Ron
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Re: What to do next?

Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:41 pm

What is it about diving that draws such characters? That read like a pulp fiction story :D
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

BigSwell
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Location: Kalifornia

Re: What to do next?

Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:09 pm

Ron:

Back then in early 2000 it was crazy-stupid what people were paying to get into rebreather diving. Unit costs were anywhere from $8,000 to well above $15,000 for CCRs, then add training anywhere from $2-$10K depending on the certification level and you're talking some serious Benjamins being thrown around (and remember this was long before the crypto craze and f8k money). I always told people who were thinking about getting into closed circuit diving to run the numbers and make sure it makes "Sense and Cents." You really need to have a defined reason to get into that type of diving and expenses and unless you have a trust fund, some National Geographic or PBS funding or won the lottery, for most people it ends up being a very expensive art piece in your garage or dive locker and just another plastic certification card in your wallet to bring out at the bar (just look at how many POSeidon CCRs are for sale on the fleabay, at a fraction of what they cost the original owner- hint, don't buy one of these units, they are too restrictive and money pits as far as I'm concerned). Annual maintenance and consumables on top of that can run in the deep hundreds. So the per/hour dive costs are very high in the beginning and you have to dive a lot, I'm talking way more than most recreational divers would ever do; like daily for 2 years to make the financial side of it pay off for the average diver. I won't even touch the semi-closed debate, as far as I'm concerned it was scam and a sad attempt at a hybrid model between scuba and tec diving. The Mares Horizon is a good example, a waste of time and money. Like Yoda said: " there is no try, either do or do not" don't half-ass it when it comes to dive equipment.

I own 4 CCR units, 3 of which are military (retired now, 1 is a pure O2 unit) and the other is a Steam Machines P1 (the dad to the Hollis PRISM2.) I can tell you back when I got into closed circuit, these units sold for $10-$25K each (I didn't pay that of course, I may be dumb but not that dumb). So the dive hype, the money, the "newness" of access to CCR rigs brought out the scammers and money douche bags and it showed. There are so many stories I can tell you about bad instructors screwing people, manufactures living day to day on the books never knowing if they will be forced to close tomorrow, promises made from the DoD that never happened AFTER the R&D and samples had been submitted to the NEDU guys for testing and machining had been ramped up in anticipation for contracts (The Costco conundrum)... on and on. I was talking with Kevin Jeurgensen a few years ago about this and we kinda had told each other we knew this day was coming, the industry just got way too hot way too fast and then the floor dropped out, very fickle and trendy like. A few people got out at the right time and sold their companies before they became financial disasters and generational anchors for their families and some did very well financially. I think Bob Hollis took too long to get the P2 off the ground when he bought the intellectual property and designs from the Readeys and by the time the P2 had its quinceañera, the industry had already moved on and the CCR hype was gone. It was a fun ride back then and I know guys who shouldn't be alive today for some of things they did on their rigs, not as many people diving CCR today that I can tell ... we are once again a rare breed. Full circle or "closed loop" seems to be the term used.

But back to the topic of keeping our forum alive and thriving... YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS, let's do what it takes and no to migration to some other place is my vote. Let scubaboard be just that and keep our village together here, I like it better that way. That's my 3000psi of pure O2 for ya.

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Vancetp
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Re: What to do next?

Thu Jan 12, 2023 5:37 pm

VDH has been a great resource to the vintage diving community, and Bryan's contributions to Doublehose and vintage diving are unquestionably profound. It would be a great shame for the forum and archive contents to be lost or unavailable for viewing. I have depended on the various threads and reference materials for information unavailable elsewhere. Hopefully, VDH will find a home somewhere.

I'm a bit surprised that no one has mentioned the Proboards forum, unless the mention of "the other forum" meant Proboards and not ScubaBoard (which I took it to mean). Proboards could not absorb VDH, but it is an alternative place to go for your vintage fix.

I know that there are a some members here who look down on the Proboards site and, for reasons of their own, would not participate. If you are one of them, you won't have much interest in what I have to say.

However, even though it experiences its own ups and downs, Proboards is a functioning forum that is available to anyone who wants to join. There are a number of VIP VDH members who have been active on PB for some time, and anyone else interested in bringing their own discussions, news, projects, and perspectives on vintage diving is welcome and encouraged to do so.

I understand that Proboards lacks some of the features of VDH. We don't host photos or reference materials on the site, but that isn't necessary. There are many free hosting and storage sites. It would be nice to have them in house, but we don't. We don't claim to be VDH or offer an identical experience. But it is a site dedicated to vintage diving, equipment, technique, etc., and is a place for those who retain an interest in communicating with other vintage divers. Anyone who feels that content on PB isn't up to snuff and needs to be improved or expanded, come show us what you've got. (Respectfully, please!)

Although they have their limitations, I think forums are a better experience than social sites like Facebook. Pros and cons have already been discussed in this thread, so I won't. PB has an interesting bunch of members, young, middle aged, and older, who are up to some interesting stuff. If you haven't already, check it out!

www. vintagescuba.proboards.com

BigSwell
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Re: What to do next?

Thu Jan 12, 2023 6:37 pm

Thanks for the info, I've never heard of Proboard so I'll have a look-see. I do like the look and feel of this board, and the fact that you can post pictures etc. But my favorite part is still the manuals and catalog section, that is a GOLD MINE!
-Kevin

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Vancetp
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Re: What to do next?

Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:12 pm

You can post photos to the PB site. Join up and see! It just requires some hoop-jumping. You'll need a hosting site like Imgur or Flickr.

I know, the chance of a Photobucket debacle hangs over every free hosting site. So far, Imgur and Flickr have a generous free photo storage offer, but that could change at any time, requiring a paid membership. It's nice when they are free, but eventually, you're going to have to shell out a few bucks.

So far, so good.

There is a sticky in the tech section of the PB site that will guide you on how to post photos.

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Ron
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Re: What to do next?

Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:44 pm

So honestly I've never been on proboard but I'm not opposed to that idea. I mean I think you run that one right Vance? I know proboard has a lot less traffic than ours and ours is fairly small. It probably wouldn't hurt from a concentration perspective to join them and have a larger place with more reach and more traffic overall.

I don't have anything against proboard or the shop associated with it but I know that for some reason there is a lot of butt hurt between the two groups of divers from here and there. I know some intermingle. I think Luis and James and Herman on already on there.

You know how divers are man. Silly. Petty. The only thing that ties them together is diving, and they even bitch and argue about that. Divers are some of the hardest people to get along with I've ever met. Have to have everything their own way :lol:

If divers ran the IT world we'd still be using carbon paper for credit cards as much as they get along.
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

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captain
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Re: What to do next?

Sat Jan 14, 2023 12:35 pm

I started posting on proboard before VDH came into existence. It is where plans for the first Sand Dog were made. I wasn't called Sand Dog at the time, it was just a meet up of divers. It was retroactively named Sand Dog 1
Captain

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Vancetp
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Re: What to do next?

Sat Jan 14, 2023 1:20 pm

Yes, I'm a fairly recent member/moderator on PB. And yes, there has been some past tension between a few members of VDH and PB.

Our traffic in the past couple of years has been fairly consistent, where VDH slowed to a near stand-still. Non scuba related content (not politics, etc.!) has been part of it since we all agreed that "General Discussion" means just that, especially during slow times, but we do keep it to mostly vintage diving.

As in most forums, there are a few who post, and a lot who lurk. Luis, James, Herman, Bill T, Mark S, David, Eben, Jerry, and several other VDH members, including myself, are PB members and frequent contributors. Anyone who would like to join up will be in good company!

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antique diver
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First Name: Bill
Location: North-Central Texas

Re: What to do next?

Sat Jan 14, 2023 6:39 pm

I have been a member of both PB and VDH forums since 2006. Started with PB, but sort of fell away after finding VDH just a few months later. It sort of felt like a better fit at the time, and for no particular reason I just neglected PB until VDH was winding down.

I posted this to let it be known that I have good things to say about my experiences with each of these forums! My questions and my comments have always been met with helpful and friendly responses from the good folks I have "met" at both forums. Thanks to all of you!

Due to being pretty active with VDH for 16 good years, I have to say that it still feels more like home to me. I hope there is a way to keep it going to maintain contact with my good VDH friends here!
The older I get the better I was.

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Ron
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Re: What to do next?

Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:13 pm

Ok, all good points. I don’t mind a merge or keeping a separate board. I mean it is nicer to merge to get more traffic and also to have higher purchasing power when mass ordering things, scheduling trips, etc.

Any of these are workable for me. I don’t even mind if we merge Vance turning it all over to you either.

Ron
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

scrane
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First Name: William

Re: What to do next?

Sun Jan 15, 2023 12:08 pm

I dive an Aquamaster/ Phoenix and some older Conshelf and ScubaPro single hose regs. VDH Forums and Databases are invaluable to me. In fact, the extensive resource of repair manuals on VDH is the last of its kind. I have a feeling that they would soon disappear if they are transferred to a larger board. Seems they've been flying under the radar of manufacturers for years. I am not a vintage diver. I just happen to be a diver who tends to dive older gear due to their unique capabilities (good and cheap).
I would like to see the VDH boards continue and would be willing to pay my fair share for the privilege.

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