guyharrisonphoto
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Salt Water in My Kraken?

Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:42 pm

Hi Everyone

After my dive today i soaked my Kraken (2016 SE) in fresh water (with the DIN cap tightly on. I then breathed it, and then took the hoses off to hang them up to dry. When I took the reg off the tank and turned it, salt water came out of the supply side horn, about 1/2 cup. Now, recently, the reg has been giving me some wet breaths, but I thought tightening the hose clamps would work. It was much better this dive after I tried that, but still some drips came in.

But, I thought that water could not enter the supply side, as it was environmentally sealed. Do I have something to worry about here? This has become my "regular diver" reg and I hate to lose it, but I would rather be safe than sorry.

If this is a problem,, I will immediately send it in for service.

Thanks!

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ScubaLawyer
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Re: Salt Water in My Kraken?

Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:57 pm

The only time(s) I've ever had that much water in the supply side (of any DH reg, not just a Kraken), and I knew my hose clamps were secured, was from 1. A small crack/split/hole in the hose, or 2. A mushroom valve in the supply-side of the mouthpiece that got stuck in a wonky position. My 2 psi.
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Herman
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Re: Salt Water in My Kraken?

Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:02 am

There are several of other things that may cause the issue. A bad main diaphragm ( not likely), cracked housing or a loose body ring. Reguardless of the cause, you need to flush out the inside of the cans. Fill them with warm water, slosh around, dump and repeat a couple of times then allow it to drain and dry- I do this anytime I remove the hoses if the reg has been in salt water. This will help stop corrosion. I would open up the cans the make sure corrosion has not started.
Herman

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SurfLung
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Re: Salt Water in My Kraken?

Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:29 am

1. I have found debris in the mouthpiece valves on occasion... hair, weeds, sand, etc. And this causing a less than complete seal. Solved by cleaning.

2. BUT like you, I also experienced salt water in my Kraken but I didn't realize it until too late and corroded the heck out of it. Thankfully, Bryan was able to rebuild it like new for me. BUT, I believe the cause for the water inside was a bad job of installing hose clamps on a new set of hoses. I was using the common Nylon USD hose clamps but did not notice I had curled up that little flange that is supposed to slide under. I believe that was the cause of the leak.
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couv
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Re: Salt Water in My Kraken?

Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:32 am

Herman wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:02 am
I would open up the cans the make sure corrosion has not started.
Do not be afraid to do this.
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guyharrisonphoto
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Re: Salt Water in My Kraken?

Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:37 am

Thanks everyone for your comments.

I will flush the can with fresh water when i get home from work tonight, and then open the cans and check for corrosion.

Thanks for the tip about flushing fresh water through the reg after each dive. I assume thus just means pouring water in the horns and then pouring it out again without opening the cans. Is there anything to do to dry the insides after this is done? Just let it air dry? Should I reconnect to the tank and breathe it for a minute or so to let the tank air dry it out? I usually keep the reg in a regulator bag where it would not dry very quickly but I could leave it out on a towel for a few days if necessary..

I will give the hoses a good examination tonight.

Before the dive, I had removed the hoses from both the reg and the DSV and ran fresh water through everything. The valves looked in good shape and seemed seated properly. When I covered the exhaust side and exhaled in, the valve on the supply side blocked any air and seemed tight. Same when I covered the supply side and tried to inhale. The DSV operation seemed smooth but I did not dissemble it further to check the O rings.

I am still wondering why a few drops of water seemed to come into the mouthpiece/DSV a couple of times during the dive. Other than that, the breathing performance was faultless (as usual)..

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simonbeans
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Re: Salt Water in My Kraken?

Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:47 am

Be sure the DSV is in the fully open position. I didn't check that once in St. Kitts. The amount of water in the mouthpiece was VERY objectionable.
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ScubaLawyer
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Re: Salt Water in My Kraken?

Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:13 am

You might also check the mouthpiece itself for cracks and check to make sure it is securely clamped to the  DSV. I had a brand new silicone mouthpiece I zip-tied to a single hose reg and had an annoying trickle of water during the dive. Turned out a small piece of hard plastic from somewhere was lodged between the mouthpiece and the reg and it was just enough to cause a small leak.
"The diver who collects specimens of underwater life has fun and becomes a keen underwater observer. .. seek slow-moving or attached organisms such as corals, starfish, or shelled creatures." (Golden Guide to Scuba Diving, 1968) :D

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Herman
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Re: Salt Water in My Kraken?

Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:32 pm

guyharrisonphoto wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:37 am
Thanks everyone for your comments.

I will flush the can with fresh water when i get home from work tonight, and then open the cans and check for corrosion.

Thanks for the tip about flushing fresh water through the reg after each dive. I assume thus just means pouring water in the horns and then pouring it out again without opening the cans. Is there anything to do to dry the insides after this is done? Just let it air dry? Should I reconnect to the tank and breathe it for a minute or so to let the tank air dry it out? I usually keep the reg in a regulator bag where it would not dry very quickly but I could leave it out on a towel for a few days if necessary..

Yea, just run warm water into the can horns, fill it up, slosh it around some, dump it out, repeat a time or 2 then set the can on edge so any water can drain. I usually come by and shake mine a few times to jar any water in pockets loose. After you are sure it's dry inside (this goes for the hoses too) then you can store it sealed.

DO NOT CONNTECT A TANK AND BREATH OFF THE HORN DIRECTLY!!!! Any DH reg and esp the AK can and will supply air at a much greater volume than you can inhale and if you get the venturi to kick in, esp with the AK, it can do serious lung damage. DON"T DO IT!. If you want to connect the hose loop up and breath off of it, fine, it certainly won't hurt anything but breathing off the horns directly is dangerous.
Herman

guyharrisonphoto
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Re: Salt Water in My Kraken?

Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:10 pm

Thanks for the warning about breathing!

I will check it out tonight and hopefully no corrosion (or minor that can be cleaned out).

My main concern now is finding the source of the water coming in.

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luis
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Re: Salt Water in My Kraken?

Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:57 pm

With any double hose regulator (vintage or modern) the can should stay dry most of the times, but it is not uncommon to occasionally get some water in the can, and it is really not a big deal (I will explain further).


I agree with all the possible leak path that have been mentioned above, and you should try to find if any of those leak path is the culprit and try to resolve it. But, don’t be surprise if you never definitively find the cause of the leak. If for example, the leak was on the hose to horn connection, you may resolve the leak when you reattach the hose and you may never be able to confirm if that was it.


Mouthpiece Valves


I will add that the most common leak path is just with the check valves in the mouthpiece. The check valves in the mouthpiece are just like the exhaust valves in a single hose regulator. They will in some circumstances allow a bit of water to go back even if they are in perfect working condition.

In a single hose regulator most of the time the valve is at the bottom and on every exhalation you blow any water out. But it is not uncommon for a SH regulator to breath a bit wet when you are in an upside-down position.

With a DH regulator the MP valves are normally vertical (in the normal swimming position). When air is flowing during inhalation the valve opens and if there is just a little bit of water at bottom of the mouthpiece that water can flow backwards, even if air is flowing into the divers mouth. I am just talking about a little bit of water at the bottom.

One of the big advantages of adding the DSV valve is that the diver (using good consistent DSV diving procedures) can avoid collecting any water at the bottom of the DSV mouth-piece.

With a vintage style mouthpiece, we usually try to blow it totally dry (every once in a while) by tipping our head to place the exhaust valve pointing down.

With the DSV, you can still do the same thing to blow out any water, but if you are always careful to close the DSV before removing it from your mouth and always blowing it dry before opening it, you can end up with a very dry loop even after an entire week of diving. I am actually experiencing dry-mouth for the first time in years of using a DH regulator.


Regular rinsing inside the can.


I personally only remove my hoses at the end of a weekend of diving or at the end of a dive trip. A dive trip to the Caribbean (or the Pacific) can be one or two weeks and can easily be 20 to 40 dives. It is not uncommon for the can to be dry, but (if I am not diligent with closing the DSV) it is also common to have about a teaspoon of water in the can by the end of the week.

At the end of a trip I always rinse inside the regulator can and flush water through the hose loop. I very rarely will remove the hoses from the mouthpiece. I dry the hoses by flowing lots of air through the hose loop. I have a dedicated vacuum cleaner that I just use to blow the hoses dry.


After the week of diving I normally open the can and rinse it well and either leave it open to dry or blow dry it with some compress air. I use an air blow gun that attaches to the LP inflator hose and sold by many dive manufacturers. I can dry all the crevices inside the can in seconds, so that I can close it and pack it to fly home.

I have also just run water into the horn and drained it out, but be careful. When you do that always make sure the diaphragm is at the bottom, so that the water is on top of the diaphragm. If you drain it with the diaphragm up, the water flowing down can (and will) cause a suction and pull the diaphragm, which will open the second stage.

By opening the can you avoid all that. And then by mounting in on a tank you can blow all the interior dry.


Saltwater in the can


Earlier I mentioned that salt water in the can is not a big deal.

On the other hand, salt water in the regulator inlet and into the first stage can be an issue, but even then our experience with the first stage in a Royal Aqua Master and the Conshelf has proven to be very rugged and be able to tolerate a lot of corrosion and abuse.

All the material in the regulator are corrosion resistant, but not corrosion-proof.

I have several Argonauts that I dive. Everyone of them were some kind of a machining error or cosmetic reject of some form. The internal plating in all of them is bad. Therefore, they tend to show a lot of green verdigris (copper-oxide) and inside the can they just don’t look good, but they work great.

There are very few spots where corrosion will affect any of the functionality and even then the very worst thing that could happen is the possibility of a leak if the corrosion is inside the first stage.

Inside the can, any corrosion will look bad, but it has to get really… really bad, before it would affect performance.

I am not trying to say that you should ignore it, but I personally don’t worry too much about it. I did not design the second stage (or any of the regulator parts) to be like a Swiss watch. I like to equate it more to an AK-47. It is designed to perform in a salt water environment without the need to treat it like delicate camera equipment or similar.

I inspect my regulators before and after every trip, but I have not rebuilt any of my Argonauts since I first put them together, about 4 or 5 years ago (or more).
Luis

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