Phoenix HPR second stage

[Nemrod]

Hmm, I guess I need some dem square thangs.

Luis, I am sure it is just a matter of getting them in the water so I can see what the state of tune is and then I will have a better idea of how much venturi effect is needed, if any, and play with the IP a bit more. I have my second HPR installed now in my Navy Phoenix which is a second gen unit and always a superb performer. See, I had a stainless steel vane and a urethane seat in these units and an IP of about 145ish. Going higher on IP always resulted in a jumpy regulator that wanted to free flow at depth.

I am headed back to the pool today, hopefully after my swim I can get them in the water, Sunday is bad for that though at the Y. My first dives are Monday week and will be a beach dive out to the Pompano Drop Off, solo, a good half mile to mile surface swim out, I will use my faithful square label Royal. This is pretty shallow, max depth about 60 to 70 feet. I probably will wait until I get down to Key largo a few days later. There, going out with Ocean Divers, always a blast, the diving will be shallow so an excellent opportunity to get a real feel for the HPR without being so deep that a "required" ascent would be an issue. When I am carrying my camera, which is most of the time, I like for my regulators to be transparent so I can focus on the dive and not leaving bits of expensive camera gear on the sea bottom as I am want to do.

I got my round label, 006, set without venturi assist. The Navy has one bleed port blocked with the barrel washer. Should give a good feel for the difference and help me learn a direction to go in. These HPRs are very exciting!

Nem

[luis]

I got my round label, 006, set without venturi assist. The Navy has one bleed port blocked with the barrel washer. Should give a good feel for the difference and help me learn a direction to go in. These HPRs are very exciting!

Nem

Hi Nemrod,

I know what you meant to say, but for the clarity of others… this nozzle design always provides venturi flow assistance.

Partially blocking the bleed holes just adds more venturi flow by decreasing the amount of bleed air into the can. The bleed air is designed to replenish the partial vacuum created by the venturi flow. Reducing the bleed air translates into more vacuum inside the can, which in turn, it sustains the air flow.

[luis]

I like the square washers. I will probably cut the back corners, not just for looks, but also to clear the ring.

Now that I see the washers, I think that I am going to try using one of them with shims under the square washer to partially block the venturi hole. I think this is going to work better than the cup washer.

My plan is to install one square washer as shown in the picture, on one side, to lock the second stage body tight. Then I can adjust the amount of bleed air with the other washer.

I am planning on using the original round washers (as spacers) to lift the square washer. The square washer is 0.06” thick and the original round washers are 0.032” thick. The bottom edge of the bleed air hole is about 0.073 above the washer surface, therefore one round washer should block just about the right amount, but two could also be interesting.

The adjustment should be quick and once it is done it would be very repeatable.

I will post some pictures and comments after I try it… probably next weekend… stay tuned.

Square washers are here and they work great. They are made from Delrin so you can round the edges or trim them down if you feel the need. These will be standard equipment on the HPR starting today. I'll have them in the store and price them to cover the cost of first class postage and the envelope.

Thanks Luis for helping me knock these out so quickly.

[Nemrod]

I got my round label, 006, set without venturi assist. The Navy has one bleed port blocked with the barrel washer. Should give a good feel for the difference and help me learn a direction to go in. These HPRs are very exciting!

Nem

Hi Nemrod,

I know what you meant to say, but for the clarity of others… this nozzle design always provides venturi flow assistance.

Partially blocking the bleed holes just adds more venturi flow by decreasing the amount of bleed air into the can. The bleed air is designed to replenish the partial vacuum created by the venturi flow. Reducing the bleed air translates into more vacuum inside the can, which in turn, it sustains the air flow.

How is this, 006 is configured to have the two small bleed nozzles unblocked and my Navy has one bleed nozzle closed with the barrel washer to further assist the venturi effect? Have you found any difference in effect blocking one bleed port vs the other?

I did get them in the pool today for my pre-trip/Spring shake down. The HPR nozzles do seem very smooth. I am not seeing a bunch of difference between the two described configurations but yes blocking one bleed port does make a small but noticeable effect and I imagine it would increase at depth. Very nice improvement and the reduced maintenance is a good thing too. This new HPR nozzle plus the DBE (duckbill eliminator) should really reduce the divers maintenance efforts greatly. In fact, now with all the silicone parts the double hose has become a completely new animal from the maintenance perspective.

Nem

[luis]

If you have one of the primary ports pointing down the horn, you should have some decent venturi flow even if you have not blocked either of the bleed ports. The ratio of bleed air to primary air flow was designed to provide a decent amount of venturi flow from the basic design.

The venturi flow will not affect the cracking effort (vacuum required to initiate flow). The venturi effect is always proportional to the air flow. If you are a light breather (which I suspect you are) you will not notice the benefit of the venturi flow assist as much as when you need more air.

The venturi flow assistance is most important when you are working hard and need more air. It is also influenced by air density. I have found a noticeable difference when I am diving at 3 atmospheres (66 feet) or more.

In a pool, if you are not intentionally breathing hard, you may not notice much of a difference or minimal difference since the venturi assistance will not be as pronounced.
On the other hand, if you take some deep breaths, you should not notice a big difference… if you don’t, there is something wrong. Something is not working right and it needs to be fixed.

It should not make any difference which of the two bleed air ports you block, they are symmetrical.

[usddude]

Round off one of the square edges on each washer so the washer will not interfere with the ring removal tool for rebuild purposes. My first thought about an improvement but now after reading other posts the suggestion has been added already...
Maybe cutting one corner will look sloppy...something like a half round oval with a flat edge is what I am going to try...or round with a flat side


Steve

[luis]

Here are some pictures of the HPR with the new square washers.

I just cut the corners of the washers with a simple wire cutter. This is not necessary, but I didn’t want it to interfere with the body ring.

You may also notice that one of the bleed air holes is partially covered (about 50% covered). The other one totally exposed. This combination seems to provide about as aggressive of a venturi flow as I would consider. Any more venturi flow and some air would be wasted.

I used two of the original round washers under the new square washer to partially block the bleed air orifice.


There is only the modified square washer on this side:




There are two of the original round washers under the square washer in this side.





The adjustment I did in the second picture is not necessary for most divers. This is only recommended if you are interested on pushing the performance to the limit. Be aware that doing so will increase the chance of wasting air from venturi induced free flows.

[Boyet]

Guys:
I got my HPR kit last week and I installed it. My question is, will it have the same adjustment just like the DA Aquamaster..that you adjust the nut you will hear it air hissing and back it up to eliminate the hissing and back it up again a 1/4 turn,I did that but there is a small play on the finger .Did I do it right OR do I have to just eliminate the air hissing and close the can with no play on the finger? You feedback will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Boyet

[Drado]

Could you elaborate further on the description of the finger play you described, and could you describe the level of the lever tips in relation to the edge of the cans?

[Bryan]

Guys:
I got my HPR kit last week and I installed it. My question is, will it have the same adjustment just like the DA Aquamaster..that you adjust the nut you will hear it air hissing and back it up to eliminate the hissing and back it up again a 1/4 turn,I did that but there is a small play on the finger .Did I do it right OR do I have to just eliminate the air hissing and close the can with no play on the finger? You feedback will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Boyet

The HPR 2nd stage is easier to adjust and much more forgiving than the original lever setup. It is easy to get bogged down in minute details that really have no bearing on the outcome or performance of the 2nd stage. Here is a direct link to the adjustment procedures. Follow the steps and don't overthink it too much and I bet it works great for you.

Click Here

[glennt]

I just installed the HPR in my Phoenix Aquamaster.

Yikes

In order to service and adjust the original 2nd stage
(with the VDH new seat holder) I had to:

1. Install it
2. Put it on a cylinder and turn on the air
3. Adjust until free flow ceased
4. Turn just a "bit" more
5. Put on the diaphragm and top can with hose
6. Readjust to stop slight free flow
7. Repeat 5
8. If no free flow, check cracking pressure by feel
9. Re-adjust if needed for easier cracking
10. Re-test next day

With the HPR I performed Luis's instructions and my
steps 1 - 5.

There was no need to re-adjust for any free flow. In fact,
the cracking effort (real world) was great as is.

I was taken aback on how easily the HPR opened and
how smooth the flow was. Cycling the reg, leaving it
under pressure and another testing on day 2 shows
no free flow and the same smooth operation.

Nicely done!

[Boyet]

Guys:
Thank you very much for the answers I got from all of you. I got it right the second time and for Bryan, when will the Phoenix be availble? That is the only one missing for my double hose regulator..Again thanks to all..
Boyet

[usddude]

Installing the HPR is as easy as eating a honey bun. I just ate one in five minutes, but first I had to decide to top the honey bun with peanut butter, blackberry jam, chocolate syrup or cinnamon sugar...maybe ice cream....just a parable but true.
Thanks Luis for showing rounded corners



usd

"its so easy"...Alex Lifeson 1997

[Nemrod]

Well, I am loving my new HPR equipped Phoenix regs but I had one small issue. Entirely my fault. You see, I apparently need new glasses and better lighting but somehow I managed to pop the slot for the screw driver on the LP seat . Now, understand that I am working on the sheetrock in my basement abode and had misplaced all of my proper tools and was making do and apparently the blade was to thin. Anyways, how do I order a spare seat?

Now, you do have spares huh for us klutzes .

This was quite upsetting to me, sort of like the quarter million dollar bolt on the fan of a P&W turbine engine, when it goes "squeak" people get sick, throw up and faint, I did all three

Oh, how do I get some dem new fangled square lock washers?

Nem

[Herman]

Nem, if you have it adjusted where you want it, I would not bother replacing the stem at this time. Once it's adjusted where you want it, there is no need to change it and the screw driver slot serves no purpose in normal operation. Years from now when you rebuild the reg would be the time to replace it if even then.