User avatar
DaveMann
Lung Diver
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:12 am
First Name: Dave
Location: Fort Myers, Fla., USA

First DH Reg - Vintage or New Argonaut Kraken?

Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:08 pm

Being a new guy, and not knowing what I don't know, I've been reading furiously for the last couple of days trying to get to the point where I can ask an intelligent question. The subject line is the question and I realize it is an opinion question.

I've read so much I've forgotten where I read this, but the post outlined the cost of a used vintage DH reg and then about 10 line items under it each with an approximate cost showing that the purchase of a used vintage reg, when all is said and done, is about the cost of the new Kraken. It makes a good point for the purchase of the Kraken.

My thoughts vary. I like the idea of diving a DH regulator with 21st century engineering, but I really like the idea of diving with a piece of history. Kind of like - do I buy a 2016 Mustang or a '69 Mach 1? The brain says buy the 2016 but the heart says buy the '69.

I'm aware that if I purchase vintage I can rebuild and upgrade in stages making things easier for the wallet.

What do you say?

DAAquamaster
Skin Diver
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:14 pm
First Name: Larry
Location: Winterville NC

Re: First DH Reg - Vintage or New Argonaut Kraken?

Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:05 pm

For me it was an obvious choice as a) I already had DA Aqua Masters and Royal Aqua Masters on hand, and b) the Kraken wasn't even a twinkle in anyone's eye yet.

I started rebuilding US Divers double hose regulators in the 'dark years' when new old stock parts were not all that common, but before all the current new production parts were available. On the plus side it was fun running down leads at old dives shops and buying up the usable parts they had. On the negative side, some parts were still scarce as hens teeth. Things needed to add modern accessories, like banjo fittings, were similarly hard to find.

In that regard when the PRAM first came out it was great news and I quickly bought one and then sent a straight, but well worn set of cans from a 1957 DA off to get re-chromed and the end result was a "new" 1957/2007 PRAM with new silicone hoses, second stage diaphragm, mouthpiece, wagon wheels, and mushroom valves and customer labels. I added an HPR second stage later, along with the DBE when it became available.

Image
Image

Then, I built another one just like it from the next run of PRAMs for my wife. More recently I built a third on a round label DA with excellent original chrome.


Image

Consequently, I now own three of them, in three different generations, 2 yoke and 1 DIN and I like them all. Two have VDH DSVs and I'm undecided on the third. I set it up with 1" EPDM hoses for my Hope Paige mouthpieces and have a RAM set up the same way.

In any event, the PRAM has become my go to recreational diving regulator doing everything other than cave and technical diving.

----

The argument for the Kraken is an all new design and an all new regulator, which makes sense if you; a) don't already have a DA or RAM in very good condition; and/or b) don't mind paying the whole sticker price up front.

----

If you like old Mustangs, I think you've answered your own question. Quite frankly in terms of performance the PRAM doesn't have anything to apologize for. Mechanically it will allow a cracking effort around .4" of water and the exhalation effort is around .5 " of water with a DBE and around .7" of water with a duckbill. Provided that you mount it properly on your back, the in water performance is on par with the average single hose regulator, although it's much more position sensitive.

User avatar
DaveMann
Lung Diver
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:12 am
First Name: Dave
Location: Fort Myers, Fla., USA

Re: First DH Reg - Vintage or New Argonaut Kraken?

Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:02 pm

Thank you for the reply. I'm leaning vintage, but I'm also willing to listen to someone who has a good argument for talking me out of it.

If I may, could you decipher some of the abbreviations you used?

What are: HPR, DSV, EPDM?

Thank you again. I do hope there are other opinions.

Dave

User avatar
Bryan
Plank Owner
Posts: 5279
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:40 am
First Name: Bryan
Location: Wesley Chapel Florida
Contact: Website

Re: First DH Reg - Vintage or New Argonaut Kraken?

Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:16 pm

HPR is the abbreviation for the improved 2nd stage Luis and Herman designed that drastically improved performance. You can see it in the website store.

http://vintagedoublehose.com/store/#!/H ... p/11100894

DSV is short for Dive Surface Valve. It allows you to control freeflow while on the surface. Details in the website store.

http://vintagedoublehose.com/store/#!/A ... p/57129018

EPDM is a compound rubber that some hoses are made from. Pros and cons between EPDM and silicone. Website store has more details.

http://vintagedoublehose.com/store/#!/H ... ort=normal


Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

kworkman
Master Diver
Posts: 344
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:17 pm
First Name: Keith
Location: Columbus, OH

Re: First DH Reg - Vintage or New Argonaut Kraken?

Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:35 pm

Sent you a PM

User avatar
DaveMann
Lung Diver
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:12 am
First Name: Dave
Location: Fort Myers, Fla., USA

Re: First DH Reg - Vintage or New Argonaut Kraken?

Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:10 pm

kworkman wrote:Sent you a PM
I don't find it. I've sent you one though.

User avatar
Bryan
Plank Owner
Posts: 5279
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:40 am
First Name: Bryan
Location: Wesley Chapel Florida
Contact: Website

Re: First DH Reg - Vintage or New Argonaut Kraken?

Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:18 am

Wanna walk on a dive boat with the one of the newest regulators available that performs on par with any top tier regulator ever produced....Argonaut Kraken. Walk on the dive boat with a completely refurbished and updated original regulator and they might be perfectly fine with it and you will enjoy a lot of discussion and admiration from the Captain and crew over how excellent it is......SOME places may tell you to get lost with that old junk.

Act like a FNG that doesn't know the equipment, can't put it together properly, has poor technique, needs lots of hand holding and you will draw suspicion no matter what gear you are using....Especially a double hose. This is very prevalent with operators in the Keys. In other places as long as you don't panic or cause a fuss they really don't care what you are diving.

90+ % of the divers on this board own several double hose regulators and depending on how they feel like diving for the day decide which one to use.

There is no universal / one size fits all answer for this question.
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

User avatar
rhwestfall
Master Diver
Posts: 631
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:34 pm
First Name: Robert
Location: "La Grande Ile"

Re: First DH Reg - Vintage or New Argonaut Kraken?

Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:34 am

Okay, I guess i will chime in. I became interested in DH regulators, but felt "overwhelmed" and/or lacking the knowledge to pick the "right" DH that I could (1) secure parts, and (2) maintain. It was also hard to evaluate regs on the internet by photographs, and seller's opinions, and difficult to find them locally. I guess it was "perfect timing" that this coincided with the original campaign for the Kraken. I jumped at getting the completely modern refined regulator with a current parts inventory, and a technician available to service it should it need it. I LOVE MY KRAKEN!

Flash forward to now, and the lure of "shiny things" always had my attention and continued to distract me. I decided that it would be fun to locate a DH from my birth year. I ended up with a very clean RAM. Since it was a RAM, my plan was to use it as originally manufactured. At the same time, I located a very clean DA on "the big auction site", began bidding, and placed a cap on what i would spend. While the auction was running, I came across another very clean DA with a non-competitive price that was in the low end of my budget. I immediately bought it, and as "luck" would have it, I ended up winning the auction one too...

Okay, now what??

I crafted a plan to take the "roughest" of the DA regs, and completely update it. DIN Phoenix/HPR/DBE, essentially as close to a Kraken as could be, but in shiny chrome and DIN. The other DA became "a wolf in sheep's clothing", using a Cyclone/HPR, and lots of modernization. The thought was to allow for easier service, and not having to always be looking for "rare" or diminishing parts. The Royal was initially going to be used stock, but there were some oddities to it, along with my desire to routinely use it with modern pressures required more changes than I planned, and it too ended up a Cyclone/HPR upgrade. Two are using long yoke/banjo configurations for an SPG, and a splitter on the hookah port allow me to use an octo and lpi.

I LOVE ALL OF THESE REGS!!!!!

I likely wouldn't take the "vintage" ones to salt water, but they are getting a bunch of use locally.

Which reg? It all comes down to what really interests you..... and maybe "both" is the answer....
Bob

No Longer Awaiting my Kraken.....

User avatar
rhwestfall
Master Diver
Posts: 631
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:34 pm
First Name: Robert
Location: "La Grande Ile"

Re: First DH Reg - Vintage or New Argonaut Kraken?

Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:51 am

so, lets say the 69 Mach1 has a bad engine (maybe prior owner beat on it or neglected it, or it had 200,000 on it, and was just simply worn out). Would you seek out an original, or would you like to put this in it:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Bob

No Longer Awaiting my Kraken.....

User avatar
simonbeans
VDH Moderator
Posts: 1035
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:00 pm
First Name: Allan
Location: Rochester NY

Re: First DH Reg - Vintage or New Argonaut Kraken?

Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:07 pm

Realize that is this comment comes from an old diver who started when diving was just becoming a popular hobby. IF you want to dive the way it WAS in the double hose day, i.e., pre-1970s, then you have your answer. Or if you want to dive with modern do-dads, again, you have your answer. Diving pure vintage requires you to know a bit more about the physics and physiology of diving, far more than what is taught in the "modern" classes. You should know and practice the skills of buoyancy, buddy breathing, and clearing the regulator. I have regs from the 1950s to an Argonaut. Love them all, but feel more for the 1960s Voit, USD, Sportsways, or Healthways double hoses. All can be made to breathe as well as they are able but possibly (perceived or otherwise) not up to the "standards" of modern regulators. If you are comfortable in the water, any dive gear is fine, tuned to their optimum condition. Be it ocean or freshwater, the regs, vintage or otherwise, are safe if maintained and in good condition.
If I were you, I would try to determine my "goal" of DH diving and make my decision on that. I look at the situation this way: What came first? vintage or modern DH? Find out how you feel about the historical aspects of DH diving and go from there.
Check out my website: www.vintagescubastuff.com

User avatar
DaveMann
Lung Diver
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:12 am
First Name: Dave
Location: Fort Myers, Fla., USA

Re: First DH Reg - Vintage or New Argonaut Kraken?

Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:18 pm

rhwestfall wrote:so, lets say the 69 Mach1 has a bad engine (maybe prior owner beat on it or neglected it, or it had 200,000 on it, and was just simply worn out). Would you seek out an original, or would you like to put this in it:
This analogy seems to fit pretty well with what a lot of people are doing. Manufacture new and improved guts and stick 'em in the old body. You have the vintage aspect and as much modern technology as will be allowed by the confines of the old sheet metal. It won't ever be a new model with all the positives that go with that, but it will be the best old model you can make and superior to the original in functionality. This "feels" like the way I want to go.


Dave

User avatar
Bryan
Plank Owner
Posts: 5279
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:40 am
First Name: Bryan
Location: Wesley Chapel Florida
Contact: Website

Re: First DH Reg - Vintage or New Argonaut Kraken?

Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:21 pm

simonbeans wrote: If I were you, I would try to determine my "goal" of DH diving and make my decision on that. .
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

User avatar
DaveMann
Lung Diver
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:12 am
First Name: Dave
Location: Fort Myers, Fla., USA

Re: First DH Reg - Vintage or New Argonaut Kraken?

Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:58 pm

Bryan wrote:
simonbeans wrote: If I were you, I would try to determine my "goal" of DH diving and make my decision on that. .

I'm pretty close.

At the outset, and before I even knew of this website, I outlined my thoughts on Scubaboard. I said "After so many reefs and so many wrecks I'm looking for something to make diving really interesting again. I'm thinking vintage equipment diving. Maybe not so much vintage equipment, but vintage style diving. I want to return to a simpler, more minimalistic, way of diving but with some modern elements thrown in."

Luis H gave me a link to this site and until then I didn't know vintage equipment diving was popular or that a thing called an Argonaut Kraken even existed. Since being here and reading about the Kraken, and reading other posts in which members posted very helpful suggestions on vintage DH regs it seems that both vintage and Kraken have strong followings. Many members have and like both. Since the DH regulator is pretty much part and parcel of vintage diving that has been my focus here at VDH.

I understand that there is no correct answer to my question. That is why my original post indicated the question was an opinion question. I'm looking for what other people think, and I will eventually determine my own course based on my own desires and the info I glean from those who know much more about vintage diving than I. Until then I hope other will share their thoughts.

DAAquamaster
Skin Diver
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:14 pm
First Name: Larry
Location: Winterville NC

Re: First DH Reg - Vintage or New Argonaut Kraken?

Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:09 pm

Bryan wrote:Wanna walk on a dive boat with the one of the newest regulators available that performs on par with any top tier regulator ever produced....Argonaut Kraken. Walk on the dive boat with a completely refurbished and updated original regulator and they might be perfectly fine with it and you will enjoy a lot of discussion and admiration from the Captain and crew over how excellent it is......SOME places may tell you to get lost with that old junk.

Act like a FNG that doesn't know the equipment, can't put it together properly, has poor technique, needs lots of hand holding and you will draw suspicion no matter what gear you are using....Especially a double hose. This is very prevalent with operators in the Keys. In other places as long as you don't panic or cause a fuss they really don't care what you are diving.
I've gotten questions about what ever PRAM I was using from boat captains or dive masters on dive boats in the Keys and in Bermuda. In some cases there's been an initial edge of concern about doing an old reg. It's never lasted more than about 10 seconds once I've described what it is, that it has a low pressure inflator for the wing, an SPG, and an octopus second stage. Any other concerns evaporate when they realize that all the rubber parts are new, that it's recently serviced and that it's in good mechanical condition. What follows is usually 5-10 minutes of conversation about it specifically, and about double hose reg diving in particular.

Having a regulator that looks good helps however, as people do often judge a book by its cover. For example, the cosmetic condition of the cans really doesn't matter much as long as the rear can seals to the hoses, the regulator body and to the second stage diaphragm it's good to go, even with missing chrome, corrosion and dents. However if it looks battered, a DM is likely to assume the internal condition is similar, and you can't really blame him or her for thinking that. I also have an advantage in that a lot of these folks also know me and know a thing or two about regulators in general and I have a bit more credibility than the average OW diver getting on a boat.

But I don't think diving a PRAM or even a RAM with an SPG and hookah port adapter would ever be a problem as long as;
a) you look competent and comfortable with it;
b) it has an SPG, a low pressure inflator and an octo; and
c) it's in good mechanical condition, has had a recent service or bench check, and has no obvious faults.

User avatar
Bryan
Plank Owner
Posts: 5279
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:40 am
First Name: Bryan
Location: Wesley Chapel Florida
Contact: Website

Re: First DH Reg - Vintage or New Argonaut Kraken?

Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:41 pm

Twice in Key Largo, two different shops......

Gearing up on Molasses Reef......Dive Master says YOU ARE NOT DIVING THAT OLD CLUNKER.....Captain says ...NOPE NOT ON MY BOAT...... I'm going diving so I take the shit box MK2 from the boat bilge they had and dive with it.

Next Trip....Different shop.....Go to check in, present Instructors credentials, Guy sees my Royal on my gear bag.....NO WAY ARE YOU DIVING THAT MUSEUM PIECE....Who do you think you are Cousteau.....Me.....Well I spoke with the owner and he's cool with it.......Kid gets on the phone with the owner....Couple minutes later kid hands me the phone....Owner says it's the captains call and he's calling BS on your gear.....BUT....BUT we will be kind enough to provide you a regulator and not charge you for the rental.....I'm there to dive and I go diving.

It may never happen to YOU.....But it has happened to ME and several other divers I know personally.
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

Return to “New Vintage Equipment Diver's Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests