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Discussion of diving methods and equipment available prior to the development of BCDs beyond the horse collar. This forum is dedicated to the pre-1970 diving.
igoswoop
Diver
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Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:28 pm
First Name: Mike
Location: Cocoa, Florida

Help me fix a USD horse collar?

Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:46 pm

So, I've been a lurker here for quite awhile. Bought a pair of steel 72s and a RAM in '15 and cannot adequately express how much I enjoy using it and how much better a diver it has made me - and I still have LOTS to learn. Thank you, all of you that make diving this stuff in enough demand that the activity is supported. I have almost converted a few buddies to the point where they are now snooping around ebay for their own double hose rigs. I may never have the opportunity to own a set of dive-able triple 30s (or what size they actually were) but the bug has bitten me good.

I'm still building out some different configurations to dive my RAM but I've gotten into the 70's single hose regs a little too. Diving a horse collar is something I've wanted to try for a long time. Seems like every one of them I see on ebay is a nasty mess that "does not hold air". I know the USD bladders can be pretty delicate.

Well, I found the cleanest USD horse collar I've ever seen on ebay this week and the picture of it in the auction showed it fully inflated and was described as able to hold air. Got it in the mail today. I promptly inflated it and started testing everything. I was ecstatic! Then, a his started coming from the shoulder dump..... Great...

Bottom line, the bladder is intact and in pretty good shape. The plastic flanges that are a part of the shoulder dump, oral inflate elbow, power inflator and CO2 fill are as crispy and delicate as a corn flake. I've removed the bladder from the BC. Is this a lost cause trying to source new fittings to install with aqua seal? I've got Dan @ Vintage Scuba Supply looking for a replacement NOS bladder for me but I'd like to have a spare on tap.

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antique diver
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First Name: Bill
Location: North-Central Texas

Re: Help me fix a USD horse collar?

Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:30 pm

I have some new old stock USD BC hardware from the 70s. If you can post a photo of the BC and also indicate the specific parts you need I will see if I have what you need.

A word of advice from my experience with the USD BC I and BC II types that were introduced in about mid-70's.... those bladders are not to be trusted. You may get it working but I wouldn't trust my life to one. That said, many of us dive under certain conditions with no BC anyway. Just don't let that one give you a false sense of security.
The older I get the better I was.

igoswoop
Diver
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:28 pm
First Name: Mike
Location: Cocoa, Florida

Re: Help me fix a USD horse collar?

Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:15 pm

I'm not too smart on the going vehicle to post pics these days since photo bucket commandeered everything awhile back. Suggestions for what works well here would be appreciated.

antique diver, I emailed you some pics of what I'm working with. I appreciate the heads up on the safety aspect of that BC if I can get it working. I'm comfortable enough diving without a BC from what I've worked out with my RAM so I guess I'll just stay very close to those parameters when diving this rig with my Calypso.

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antique diver
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First Name: Bill
Location: North-Central Texas

Re: Help me fix a USD horse collar?

Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:07 pm

Mike, I got your email, but apparently I didn't read your post accurately. I thought you were saying bladder was ok, but some separate attachments were crumbled. I don't have a good bc bladder either, and don't have the crumbled parts that were supposedly permanently bonded. I do have some external parts, but they won't do you any good at this point. Sorry.

Many of those bladders became a problem within a few years of being sold, and from what I hear from others finding a good one will be tough.
The older I get the better I was.

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ScubaLawyer
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Location: Laguna Beach, CA

Re: Help me fix a USD horse collar?

Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:35 pm

I gave up horse collar BC's back in the 70's when I got my first At-Pac. My USD yellow horsecollar is still hanging in my garage. The bladder turned to dust many moons ago. There are a number of new ones that are not inexpensive but would certainly serve the purpose; for example:

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 2819210315

Good luck,

Mark
"The diver who collects specimens of underwater life has fun and becomes a keen underwater observer. .. seek slow-moving or attached organisms such as corals, starfish, or shelled creatures." (Golden Guide to Scuba Diving, 1968) :D

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SurfLung
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First Name: Eben
Location: Alexandria, MN
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Re: Help me fix a USD horse collar?

Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:34 am

- I went through the same desires and dilemmas a few years back trying to get a good horsecollar BC from vintage sources. I wasted a lot of time and money and I never did find an old one that was serviceable and trustworthy for diving.

- What I DID find was a relatively NEW unit made by SeaTec and actually still in production. Mine was used and the plastic flanges for the inflator and exhaust ports were broken. But on the SeaTec, those parts are generic... Same parts as modern BCDs. I was able to order them from Dive Gear Express and repaired the SeaTec easily. Bladder was and is like new because the SeaTec is a "modern" horsecollar. Here's what I posted on VDH:

Image
I have two Seatec Sunfish horse collar BCs. One is brand new that I'm saving. The other (above) is a nearly new one that must have got run over by a car or something. The plastic backing disks on the inflator and the exhaust valves were both broke in half. I was able to buy replacement parts from Dive Gear Express and restored this horsecollar to like new working condition.

I find the horsecollar a very convenient add-on for my vintage diving... Where sometimes I want to use it and sometimes not. When diving vintage regulators with no inflator hose, it's easy to just blow a half a breath at a time into the oral inflator. But I've also used it with my Argonaut Kraken and inflator hose for push button inflation.

One thing that's very different with the horsecollar when using an inflator hose: You have to disconnect the inflator hose to take your tank off. And, I discovered the hard way that some quick disconnects are difficult to grip with cold wet gloved hands! Since then, I have switched all of my quick disconnects to the XS type with the wide gripping collar... Problem solved.

BTW - Seatec horse collar BCDs were used by the Navy Seals extensively. The Navy versions have two big honking 38 gram CO2 cylinders with separate detonators. Commercial versions like mine just have one detonator and 38 gram CO2.
SurfLung
The Freedom and Simplicity of Vintage Equipment and
Vintage Diving Technique are Why I Got Back Into Diving.

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captain
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Location: LaPlace, LA

Re: Help me fix a USD horse collar?

Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:15 pm

The bladders in the old USD horse collar with the combination inflate / dump control on the right side were notorious for crumbling apart.
Captain

igoswoop
Diver
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:28 pm
First Name: Mike
Location: Cocoa, Florida

Re: Help me fix a USD horse collar?

Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:18 pm

Thanks Eben.

I wonder if the Seatec bladder would fit in a USD BCD cover? I might be able to find something to cap off the right side power fill hole and just run it as a "BC I" (BC I was oral inflate only, BC II added the power inflator). I'm totally fine with the BC being completely manual inflate/deflate or just running a conventional power inflator on the corrugated hose.

Contacting Seatec right meow although this might be part of your "wasted time & money" warning. Here goes.

So how does one post pics here btw?

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SurfLung
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First Name: Eben
Location: Alexandria, MN
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Re: Help me fix a USD horse collar?

Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:22 pm

How to post pictures...

There are specific instructions posted on this forum...
viewforum.php?f=55
SurfLung
The Freedom and Simplicity of Vintage Equipment and
Vintage Diving Technique are Why I Got Back Into Diving.

igoswoop
Diver
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:28 pm
First Name: Mike
Location: Cocoa, Florida

Re: Help me fix a USD horse collar?

Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:30 pm

So, I'm trying to work with Seatec to get a replacement bladder from them as well as a NOS USD bladder.

This might be an exercise in futility but I found a shop locally that can handle RF welding of all kinds of material and fabric. My bladder is in good enough shape that it can be used for a pattern. What will be tricky is finding the flanged fittings for the bladder.

As Eden pointed out, Dive Gear Express sells some BC parts. I found a shoulder dump and inflator elbow fitting that can easily be subbed in for the USD parts. I'm not going to have something 100% original but an RF welded modern TPU or similar fabric bladder would significantly up the comfort factor for using one of these safely. I just need to start working on the flanged ports that'll go on the front.

Going to need a size and a thread pitch for:
1. Right Shoulder Dump
2. Left shoulder Elbow/Inflator
3. CO2 Firing Mechanism
4. The R/Chest Power Inflator.

Gonna reach out to some custom soft fuel bladder manufacturers in my area to see if they can turn me on the right path.

In the meantime, I will be looking for a Seatec Sunfish or the Aqualung Calypso Military horse collar to have something to dive.

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ScubaLawyer
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First Name: Mark
Location: Laguna Beach, CA

Re: Help me fix a USD horse collar?

Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:34 pm

Just got a trauma flashback to a time when I had an inflated horse collar BC and a very snug crotch strap. I knew there was a reason I told myself I'd never use one again. :D
"The diver who collects specimens of underwater life has fun and becomes a keen underwater observer. .. seek slow-moving or attached organisms such as corals, starfish, or shelled creatures." (Golden Guide to Scuba Diving, 1968) :D

igoswoop
Diver
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:28 pm
First Name: Mike
Location: Cocoa, Florida

Re: Help me fix a USD horse collar?

Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:46 pm

Ouch

swimjim
Master Diver
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Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:28 am
First Name: Jim
Location: Belgium WI

Re: Help me fix a USD horse collar?

Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:34 pm

I have a new production horse collar similar to what ScubaLawyer shared a link too earlier in this thread. It works. Truth be told though, I use a drysuit for almost all of my diving and I use that for buoyancy control. When I dive wet, I weight for depth and use my lungs. I find the horse collars to be more trouble then they are worth. YMMV

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SurfLung
Master Diver
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First Name: Eben
Location: Alexandria, MN
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Re: Help me fix a USD horse collar?

Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:50 am

Other Ideas...
- Remembering why I got interested in a Horsecollar in the first place... I wanted some sort of emergency flotation that was portable enough to work with my vintage regulators. CO2 inflatables are what they used in the old vintage days, so that's what I was looking for originally. After getting the SeaTech all fixed up and working, I found a more compact CO2 inflatable... The "SwimIt" emergency life jacket for TriAthletes.
- The SwimIt is actually an airline emergency CO2 flotation vest. It is so thin and light, it packs into a pouch about 4 x 6 x 1.5 inches. It inflates with a 16 gram CO2 and you slip it over your head just like a horse collar vest. It's designed to wear strapped to your thigh and I originally wore it that way for enough years that the straps wore out and it kept sliding down my leg.
- So THIS year, I figured a rational for wearing it on my weightbelt: I removed the tether so that I can inflate the vest first and drop the weight belt second. This has turned out to be the best of all possible worlds.
- I even used it in a semi-emergency situation last Summer and it was so slick to just reach down, pull the cord and come up with a nicely inflated flotation device. (Modern tank based BCD inflators don't work so well after a free flow empties the tank).

This story might give some ideas for using airline vests... Available online. Or if anyone wants to look into the SwimIt system here's the address.
http://www.theswimit.com/
Image
Above you see the swimmer holding the pouch in one hand and the inflated vest in the other. I removed the tether so that I can wear the SwimIt pouch on my weight belt. This allows me to drop the weight belt (and the pouch) after inflating the vest.
SurfLung
The Freedom and Simplicity of Vintage Equipment and
Vintage Diving Technique are Why I Got Back Into Diving.

igoswoop
Diver
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:28 pm
First Name: Mike
Location: Cocoa, Florida

Re: Help me fix a USD horse collar?

Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:13 pm

Starting to run through some contingency plans. I know the local RF welded "DIY" bladder is a looooong shot, retrofitting the Seatec Sunfish bladder is a little sketchy & NOS USD bladder if one can be found isn't a super solid plan with their durability track records.

A "new" Seatec BCD or the current AL military horse collar is an option but the power inflator is in the conventional location. This kind of rules out smooth hose routing for a Calypso IV single hose unless I'm missing something obvious. No issues with either of those BCDs with a Conshelf XII or an Aquarius but I happen to like the way my Calypso IV breathes and I'd like to get some more use out of it. I also wouldn't mind having a BCD of some sort to use with it as an option when I'm diving in a different configuration than just a monkey rig.

Anyone seen a oral only BCD inflator mechanism of recent manufacture? I know I could just dive either the Seatec or AL horse collars without a LP hose connected to the power inflator but I was wondering if anyone was aware of an oral inflator only type valve I could rig to a generic corrugated hose for one of those BCs?

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