Forum rules
Discussion of diving methods and equipment available prior to the development of BCDs beyond the horse collar. This forum is dedicated to the pre-1970 diving.
BROXTON CHUCK

Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:28 am

I submit, we dont need all these din ports, and lp take offs. We are suggesting a vintage item here. Not a contemporary vintage item, as that would be ambigious, but a true double hose regulator of the highest order. Simply reproduce the royal, and make the diver who uses it get the training to use it safely. Hell any idiot can dive a 2 hoser the same as a single hose reg. It takes longer to show somebody how to put it on your , and "over your head" than it takes to take a breath out of it. What needs to be done is to simply cut the types of diving into contemporary and vintage. You dont drive a 67 malibu at Indy, but I drove mine to new york last week to dive my vintage gear. It is just as good on the road as this modern stuff, you just need to know how to drive it, and maintain it. Same goes with gear. If you want a vintage reg, copy the best there was, and let it go at that. Change the scuba diver............ NOT the REG! :o :o

oldmossback

Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:46 am

James

I agree a modern Royal is the way to go under most circumstances...........Chuck a modern Royal can be used as vintage by just pluging the extra ports and using as any standard Royal now in existence.

Why not have both worlds? Anyway, Aqualung might have something considerable to say about copying a exact repo of their Reg. Even if it is no longer manufactured by them.

Michael

BROXTON CHUCK

Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:08 pm

aqualing wouldnt make anything they couldnt make a profit on. Thats the law of business balance. To put this over you would have to start an ad campaign stressing the simplicity, of diving as we know it, and the fun there is of using it. That would be attractive to a buyer, even if he isnt vintage inclined. This would attract the practical diver, who dosent want all the d ring crap, computers, masks with telephones and other geegaws! If it dosent come about, Im not sweating it. Walk on dude! See you at Wazoo, I mean Wazee. :lol:

dhaas
Lung Diver
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:23 pm
Location: Stow OH
Contact: Website

Any NEW Double Hose design being manufactured

Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:06 pm

Folks,

A mass produced new double hose regulator ain't EVER going to happen in the U.S. One other BIG reason...Lawyers and liability. The two guys who started Atomic after they left Scubapro can probably tell what an astronomical amount they pay in insurance for manufacturing a life support device in the U.S.

You will also NEVER sell enough of any new double hose regs without LP and at least one HP port. Real world sport diving in the "Big O" demands it as James (AKA Nemrod) says.

As far as bashing ALL modern gear, I don't think you could dive a lot of places in the world safely without it. Let's take one modern equipment example, dive computers... The best thing to EVER happen to diving in my 36 years of diving. Enables you to dive multi level 3,4 5 + times a day, breath NITROX for less on gassing (and more bottom time), faster off gassing and REAL ascent rate warnings plus a log function in even the most basic of models. Oh yeah, it's more accurate than ANY mechanical watch and depth ever made due to computer chips and electronics. This isn't imaginary stuff, it's from real research and thousands of divers out there using them every day. I had apressure pot when I woned Orca Dive computer and let me tell you, mechanical depth guages generally are horribly off! And to think we used (and many I guess still do!) these to calculate our nitrogen loading!

Yes, as Chuck says a 1967 auto may still run. But most people want A/C, automatic trans, windows, cushier suspension, etc.

I'll dive some vintage gear for fun in certain conditions, but for travel I still need and want my modern gear. The way I dive it it's just as simple if not more so due to no weight belt needed on my integrated BC. I HATE those freakin' things! :)

David Haas

User avatar
Nemrod
VDH Moderator
Posts: 1434
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:53 pm
First Name: James
Location: Kansas

Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:52 pm

You can certainly use a computer with a double hose and I see no reason a Royal or DA could not be made nitrox ready and since my brief use of those Apecks I think they breath about as well as those plastic hubcaps. If you have a safe second an inflator hose for BC and an spg then I am certain most dive boats will welcome you. If you show up with a Mae West, a J reserve and no safe second then your not going diving on a commercial boat or similar operation.

I don't see a new double hose as a mass production but instead a "custom" market like custom motorcycles or even some types of firearms. To get around liability the regulator would be kit assembled. The parts could come from different sources perhaps--like the AR15 rifle kits (no--I don't have one but I know about them)

I am certain that any open water sport dive I have ever done I could have accomplished as well or better with either of my Royals. Had it in the pool this weekend running a LP for a wing, a second LP for a safe second, spg, the works and it results in a smooth breathing and capable rig. Dove it the same way in my stop off last Spring in Destin with excellent resuls.

Unfortunately, my current performance limiter is not my regulators, it is me.

Past, present or future, double hose is best!
James

User avatar
pearldiver
Vintage Diver
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Rockton, IL Near of course Pearl Lake

Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:51 pm

Hey, Ed just got back from diving the Andria Doria. He said he would let me know about the regulators later. (Mentor and new mistral) I may have more info by the time I'm at the vintage dive for you's guys. Any questions you want me to ask him technical wise or sales wise?
:wink:

oldmossback

Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:11 pm

I can see where 500,000 over ten years would be too much to produce, thats only 50,000 a year, not THAT many vintage divers out there I wager.

James is probably correct in suggesting a custom manufacture of these.....still it's a finanical risk, my whole point in my beginning response. Liability Insurance is another cost.........Non-Certified aircraft designers/kit providers for homebuilt aircraft still run into law suits even if they are not the actual builder. So would a custom regulator provider.

Still, if no one steps up to the plate in the next few years, I'd say the double hose will be history in say 25 to 30 years.

Guess all one can do is join Chuck in a shot of Old Hawk and dive these things till we can't no more.

I can not, my wife wants her's modified so she can dive off the dive boats, resorts and other places down in Mexico and South America. She does not like her Conshelf that much, the bubbles in her face, the weight on her teeth and the short (normal?) breathing rythym. The current assessory hose system I have works ok, but is less than satisfactory. System 2 will be coming up in a couple of months........

User avatar
Nemrod
VDH Moderator
Posts: 1434
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:53 pm
First Name: James
Location: Kansas

Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:03 am

I am familair with homebuilt aircraft. I am an EAA Tech Rep. I have built and flown to Oshkosh a Kitfox IV, built and sold a nearly complete Van's RV4 and I am slowly and occasionally building a Van's RV7A now. There are great similarities in that these "kit" aircraft are faster, more efficient and more advanced than simialr factory built stuff if there is anything similar at all. But homebuilding of aircraft hit a critical mass and there are scads of cottage industries supporting this homebuilt aircraft movement. We are a long way from that point with vintage but not that far because we are not talking about sinking 70,000 dollars into a kit plane but instead 600ish dollars into "kit" double hose regulator. I would expect it would run at least that much. Anyone expecting a 250 dollar unit is dreaming. In the 1960 these things cost about 70 to 100 dollars. A car cost 2,500 dollars and a Cessna 172 was 7,000 dollars. That 172 runs about 180,000 dollars now, a car runs 20,000 or more and a internally modern, efficient, high performance, vintage looking double hose is going to run some bucks.

Looks to me like vintage suppliers already have most of the internal parts. What we are missing is the new boxes and the new "extended" body that would have provisions for accesories. The fist/second stage body of these old regulators appeared to be cast and then machined. There is machining equipment now that could make the entire piece from billet stainless with virtually no human tocuh. The thing is that farming such jobs out to local buisnesses at low volume means very high cost per unit. It is the cost, not the diffuculty. As to patents and all that, this is all old technology, common knowledge and most patents have expired. Aside from infringing on a trademark I don't see how anyone could object to new regulators being built. Just don't call them an Aqua-Master. Oddly there seems to be great interest in vintage equipemnt in Japan. It would not surprise me if some one over there does not do this.

Meanwhile, I happily dive what I have.
James

BROXTON CHUCK

Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:55 am

Well said James. I still maintain that there is enough stuff coming out of ebay every week to supply the vintage divers for years to come. I would surely go and lay out 25.000 for a mint 65 ford mustang, before I would ever even think about buying a modern computerized clone of the classic original one. See you at wazee on thursday and friday. Yes Ill bring the BROXTON.

User avatar
Bryan
Plank Owner
Posts: 5279
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:40 am
First Name: Bryan
Location: Wesley Chapel Florida
Contact: Website

Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:06 am

There are reproduction regulator bodies being cast right now. They will use some old technology as well as new....They are not being done by me....but I expect to see some of them around soon.
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

oldmossback

Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:47 pm

Bryan

that sounds like good news............

User avatar
treasureman
Master Diver
Posts: 412
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: Ottawa Canada
Contact: Website

mentor

Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:08 pm

The canadian navy had at one time expressed an interest in the mentor, and a colleague of mine who was vested with the authority to evaluate such equipment tells me that it brathed ok, but compared to the navy Approved, it was a toss up as to whiuch was better ...their older double hose DA navy or the new mentor.

If there is to be a resurrection of the double hose, specs are needed.

Perhaps the patents which wre issued for these regs could be found..copied and used as a means to update fopr a new one.

I have searched the US patent office database to no avail. The key i guess is to figure out who held the patent?

oldmossback

Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:25 pm

if you can't find the spec's then retroengineering would be a viable alternative............

Return to “Classic Vintage Diving”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 24 guests