cdharris
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Argonaut mouthpiece question

Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:25 pm

Bryan, Luis:

During the last few weeks, I have repeatedly viewed the photos of the beta-tested Argonaut but, until today, I missed an important detail of the mouthpiece design.

My least favorite part of vintage double hoses is dealing with the "one size fits all" mentality when it comes to bite comfort. I figured for sure that the Argonaut regulator's mouthpiece would be designed like modern single hoses, i.e. with a removable and customizable mouthpiece that connects via cable tie to a hard plastic base. The Coz photos from November suggest otherwise.

After all the "modern technology but old school style" effort, is this going to have a fixed, one part, mouthpiece? I sure hope not. The second hour of a shallow water dive with even a reproduction DA-AM silicone mouthpiece is still sheer agony for me. I know a lot of people hate the modern AL Mistral, but at least they did keep improvements in jaw and gum comfort in mind. And there have been LOTS of improvements in the last couple decades.

Thanks.

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Bryan
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Re: Argonaut mouthpiece question

Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:51 pm

We will be using the standard curved mouthpiece that has served us well for years on the Kraken version of the Argonaut. As I have posted many times in the past we are developing a DSV type mouthpiece that will allow you to use any type of removable mouthpiece you want......This will most likely be seen in the next version of the Argonaut. Honest truth is we are out of time and out of R&D money.
The Kraken is a great regulator and I believe it will be a big hit with divers everywhere. Based on it's success I will decide if we put the second version of the regulator into motion or not. If we do, the DSV mouthpiece we have been working for the last 2 years will be part of it. You will be able to retrofit it to most earlier double hose regulators as well.

I'm sorry to hear you won't be joining the new Argonaut Kraken group. Try as we might I knew we wouldn't make everyone happy every time. Hopefully there will be a second model you find more to your liking. I appreciate the feedback as well.
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

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simonbeans
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Re: Argonaut mouthpiece question

Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:00 pm

As Bryan has adequately stated, a mouthpiece of which you speak is indeed in the development stage, however, first things first. In the mean time, Luis and I did a little experimenting with a mouthpiece design which was developed in my shop and tested in Cozumel.

Basically we took a Voit ("hour-glass") mouthpiece, courtesy of The Scuba Museum , cut off the existing mouthpiece, fabricated an oval, stainless insert that fitted the opening perfectly, and added a modern mouthpiece held by the ubiquitous cable tie.

Luis, testing the design, added a couple of hose weights from a rebreather hose.

Image

Image

Image
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KD8CVL
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Re: Argonaut mouthpiece question

Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:27 pm

I don't know the specific source of your discomfort. However, this may help. I find that my personal comfort with classic curved, ergonomic mouthpiece is very, very, very sensitive to any torque in mouthpiece (rotational moment that my jaw has to overcome). This moment or torque can be balanced and eliminated by simply adjusting the relaxed (in water) angle of mouthpiece relative to diver's mouth. Simply assess which way the bit is tugging on on your mouth and bias the rotational position of mouthpiece (relative to regulator) in the opposite direction. Experiment and determine the precise position that works best for you. Document the setup and go back to it every time you disassemble and reassemble the hoses and mouthpiece. The mold lines on Bryan's silicone hoses makes this very easy to do. My two hose setup with its balanced hoses is as comfortable or more comfortable than any single hose regulator I have ever used, and I have used many in 48 years of diving.

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luis
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Re: Argonaut mouthpiece question

Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:55 pm

Thanks Allan for posting those pictures.

This is really Allan's design and he made that first prototype. This is a very good DIY project, which produces a reasonable alternative to the vintage type of mouthpieces.

I have made two more with a different mouthpiece bytes.

I measured the opening of the hour glass mouthpiece and found a thin wall stainless steel tube that can be shaped to fit snug in the opening. This metal tube provides support to be able to apply a tie-strap. I ended up using silicone seal/ glue to provide extra security to the tube and will also be using it on the mouthpiece.

If anyone is interested I can make drawings for the tube shape and provide the McMaster-Carr part number for the tube.

Image

I will also provide more detail pictures.

This mouthpieces can be used with any DH and will provide a good alternative until the new design is available.


The only issue I found with any mouthpiece that uses a replaceable style bite (single hose regulator style) is that the breathing tube is a bit longer (than the vintage style) and tends position hoses a bit further away from your mouth. The issue with this is that since the hoses tend to float some, the increase distance makes the mouthpiece feel like it is pulling up more. I added some stainless steel rings to the hoses as weights to balance the buoyancy of the hoses.

On the left is an hour glass Voit style mouthpiece before it is modified. Notice that the mouthpiece in the center sticks out more than the original MP. The replaceable MP bite is as close as possible to the hose tube and there is no way to design it any closer.
The mouthpiece on the right is a military MP.

Image


Image



Note: My personal favorite mouthpiece is definitely the curved one, but I have talked to some divers that have an issue with any of the vintage style MP. What KD8CVL mentioned is normally a good solution. Careful alignment of the MP can take care of most issues. Sometimes it can even compensate for the hose buoyancy. In addition to alignment some people may benefit by trying some rings as hose weight to make the hose loop close to neutral.

The hoses for double hose regulators don't have to be as large as re-breather hoses so they don't float as much, but even that slight flotation (of our standard hoses) can bother some divers during long dives.
Luis

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Herman
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Re: Argonaut mouthpiece question

Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:23 pm

I will add that I much prefer the Voit hour glass mouthpiece to the curved ones. I use them on all my regs that I do not care about keeping in original style. It may be a better alternative until one with a replaceable mouthpiece is available.
I know a lot of folks would like all sorts of things to be made, what most don't realize is the amount of behinds the scenes work (and cash)that goes into a project like this. A large company with deep pockets and staff can pull it off easily but a small operation has to do it in more manageable bits. The biggest thing any of us can do to help bring more goodies like a new mouthpiece to the market is to support Bryan by buying his products.
Herman

cdharris
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Re: Argonaut mouthpiece question

Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:28 pm

Luis and Allan,

This is very useful information. I figured that the Coz version was probably post-beta but thought it was worth mentioning. It is obvious that different folks have very different priorities when it comes to diving and mine include dental comfort. I don't find stock mouthpieces on ANY regulator (single or double hose) comfortable due to dental issues and LONG underwater durations. We all have different SACs and WOB preferences so why should comfort issues be any different?

Unfortunately, suggestions about MP alignment address problems that aren't at the heart of my discomfort. Not to mention that, thanks to old VDH posts, my hoses/mouthpieces are well fitted.

I am grateful to hear that others find modern "comfort molded" mouthpieces advantageous and worthwhile. And I will definitely work on a DIY solution for my Kraken -- if I manage to raise the "grubstake" before they all disappear. Likewise, thank you for the offer of MC part numbers -- I find their catalog daunting at best!

I too have found use for brass rings on my DA-AM hoses when using fitted mouthpieces for the very reason you mention. Unfortunately, my DIY mouthpiece is not nearly as slick as yours but it works for the time being. Again, thanks for the suggestions.
luis wrote:Thanks Allan for posting those pictures.

This is really Allan's design and he made that first prototype. This is a very good DIY project, which produces a reasonable alternative to the vintage type of mouthpieces.

I have made two more with a different mouthpiece bytes.

I measured the opening of the hour glass mouthpiece and found a thin wall stainless steel tube that can be shaped to fit snug in the opening. This metal tube provides support to be able to apply a tie-strap. I ended up using silicone seal/ glue to provide extra security to the tube and will also be using it on the mouthpiece.

If anyone is interested I can make drawings for the tube shape and provide the McMaster-Carr part number for the tube.

Image

This mouthpieces can be used with any DH and will provide a good alternative until the new design is available.

The only issue I found with any mouthpiece that uses a replaceable style bite (single hose regulator style) is that the breathing tube is a bit longer (than the vintage style) and tends position hoses a bit further away from your mouth. The issue with this is that since the hoses tend to float some, the increase distance makes the mouthpiece feel like it is pulling up more. I added some stainless steel rings to the hoses as weights to balance the buoyancy of the hoses.

Note: My personal favorite mouthpiece is definitely the curved MP, but I have talked to a number of divers that have an issue with any of the vintage style MP. What KD8CVL mentioned is normally a good solution. Careful alignment can often even compensate for the hose buoyancy. In addition to alignment some people may benefit by trying some rings as hose weight to make the hose loop close to neutral.

The double hose regulator hoses don't have to be as large as re-breather hoses so they don't float as much, but even that slight flotation can bother some divers during long dives.

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luis
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Re: Argonaut mouthpiece question

Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:56 pm

This mouthpiece is very easy to make.

I will provide more detail pictures later. I may also be able to help you with the tube.


Herman wrote: I know a lot of folks would like all sorts of things to be made, what most don't realize is the amount of behinds the scenes work (and cash)that goes into a project like this. A large company with deep pockets and staff can pull it off easily but a small operation has to do it in more manageable bits. The biggest thing any of us can do to help bring more goodies like a new mouthpiece to the market is to support Bryan by buying his products.
I have to totally agree with the paragraph above.
Luis

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Nemrod
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Re: Argonaut mouthpiece question

Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:38 am

The PRAM being dived here by Couv has the mouthpiece mod that Luis has described complete with the weights to offset the additional leverage:

Image

The reason the mouthpieces have large openings, on many high performance single hose regs and the curved double hose USD mouthpiece, is to prevent it being a restriction.

I want a Kraken (now :lol: ), I will worry about the mouthpiece later if I am forced to make my own from a PVC tube and a heat gun or wrassle Couv for his :shock: .

I would not get all hung up on the minor things.

Nem

cdharris
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Re: Argonaut mouthpiece question

Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:49 am

Nemrod wrote:I would not get all hung up on the minor things.

Nem
We may have to agree to disagree that -- when spending $600+ on a regulator -- bite comfort is a "minor thing". Just my two cents.

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Bryan
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Re: Argonaut mouthpiece question

Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:23 am

cdharris wrote:
Nemrod wrote:I would not get all hung up on the minor things.

Nem
We may have to agree to disagree that -- when spending $600+ on a regulator -- bite comfort is a "minor thing". Just my two cents.
Just don't buy one. Then you won't have to worry about the mouthpiece. "Just my two cents"
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

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Nemrod
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Re: Argonaut mouthpiece question

Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:56 pm

cdharris wrote:
Nemrod wrote:I would not get all hung up on the minor things.

Nem
We may have to agree to disagree that -- when spending $600+ on a regulator -- bite comfort is a "minor thing". Just my two cents.
I am not dismissing your concerns nor am I making light of it :D . I appreciate that you have a specific need. Here, let me make a football analogy. Bryan is like Drew Brees, it is seconds until the game is over, he needs seven points to win. A field goal will not do, a TD by itself will not do. But, he knows he cannot win if he does not first get the team that TD. Bryan is back in the pocket, the opposing team (GOO) is putting the pressure on and Sproles is fighting to get clear and the DIR guys are hanging on him. Drew, in this case, Bryan, needs the team to hold off GOO, until Sproles can get clear. Once Sproles gets the TD for Brees (Bryan) and the team, then they can get that field goal and win it. The field goal extra point is like the mouth piece, the TD is like getting Argonauts manufactured and in peoples hands.

That is what I meant about minor things, right now the TD is the big thing, Brees will worry about the field goal after he gets the TD.

Okay, first, I never have played fooseball, so forgive me, but I do understand that a certain fellow we all know is like all in and needs a touch down. He will get to a mouthpiece and win the game, but first get the Argonaut across the goal line for the TD. The team needs the TD first.

And, I understand about the agony :( , I have dental implants courtesy of a drunk driver. I finds the curved mouthpiece very comfortable because it is buoyant and has a short moment and therefore does not pry out and down on my upper front teeth. In order for those involved to understand your specific needs or other peoples needs, one will have to be more specific about exactly what makes the current mouthpieces "agony" as that is not specific or even helpful to the discussion.

The test pilots do this to us at work all the time, their complaints are non specific, okay, like, what do you want me to do :| .

Changing subjects slightly. Rebreathers need a DSV mouthpiece to prevent contamination of the circuit. A DH regulator does not need a DSV but it could use some sort of surface shutoff, which might not necessarily be at the mouthpiece.

Just a couple of years ago, there were no hoses, no valves, no cages, no mouthpieces, no cans, no duckbills much less a DBEV, no HPR, no Phoenix, no diaphragms, no freaking nothing :!: I remember well.

Nem

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Creed
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Re: Argonaut mouthpiece question

Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:57 pm

Yeah, I remember patching an exhaust hose with black electrical tape because everyone was out of new hoses. And I remember people hoarding crappy OEM parts because there wasn't anything else. If it weren't for the effort that Bryan, Rob, Luis and others put in to designing and making parts, we would all still be sanding our first stage seats and hoping to catch a break on ebay. I'm still amazed at how far this niche of diving has come in the last few years. Honestly, if it hadn't been for a chance encounter with Nemrod years ago on scubaboard(mocking my "girly single hose" regulator, no less) which led to my discovery of this vintage diving group, I would probably not be diving today. VDH kept my interest up and kept getting me to go back into the water through all the times when finances and time put a stranglehold on everything(not that moving to Silicon Valley made the finances any better...).

A mite off topic, but it's something to keep in mind when we worry about the projects which are still on the horizon. I would take Luis up on his offer to help with the mouthpiece right now, and then help with suggestions as Bryan wraps up his new mouthpiece project when resources allow it.
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sitkadiver
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Re: Argonaut mouthpiece question

Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:45 pm

Would a Hope Page mouth piece help you? They're tough to find, but you can change the mouthpiece portion with a modern one. good luck.
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Herman
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Re: Argonaut mouthpiece question

Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:31 pm

You also have to have 1"x 1" hoses instead of the USD 1" x 1 1/2 " ones.
Herman

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