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couv
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Phoenix nozzle clocking issue-solved?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:00 pm

Hello gurus,

Putting my new HPR and Phoenix nozzle into a DA can and body seemed to be pretty straight forward (strait forward thanks to tons of help from you guys, that is.) Everything went together well and tested/breathed just fine. However, I just could not seem to come up with the exact clocking of the nozzle I wanted by using various combinations and numbers of nylon washers. Therefore, I decided to try using an o-ring and nylon washer combination so I could have a bit more flexibility in positioning the nozzle. I used a duro 90 -017 o-ring and it seems to be just what the doctor ordered. However, I thought I should pool you guys to make sure I'm not introducing an unforeseen problem.

What say ye?

TIA,

Couv
A sincere THANK YOU to all at VDH who make this wonderful resource available and to all the thoughtful contributors.

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kiwidiver
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Re: Phoenix nozzle clocking issue-solved?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:27 pm

on my FX Auquamaster i was using the blanking plug in place of the first stage as i was feeding it off a remote first stage and i was using an O-ring instead of a washer and had no issues with it at all. so when i got my Phoenix i tried the O-ring as well and it seems to be working fine, although i have only done one test dive with it so far. I Had the same issue with trying all sorts of combinations to get the clocking correct.

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luis
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Re: Phoenix nozzle clocking issue-solved?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:05 pm

I have been able to clock all of my Phoenix, but it is not always easy. Sometimes it requires a heck of a lot of torque.

On one regulator that I just could not get it with any other combination, I did use a hard O-ring (I think it was Teflon). The O-ring was from McMaster-Carr. I did try the 90 durometer O-ring but was concern about the rubber relaxing over time and the first stage loosening.

I have had a standard RAM loosen up once due to the torque that can occur when pulling on the horns of the can. I just didn't torqued it tight enough... I have never allowed that again.

So the concern is that since there is no metal to metal tightening surface, the gasket can relax and the regulator can unscrew. This is not an issue with the plug, but it is a real issue when the regulator is mounted on a tank (using a yoke) and there is any twisting load applied to the horns. There is a decent moment arm if there is any load applied to the horns.

Therefore, if I was going to do it again, I would try the hard rubber O-ring like you are thinking about, but I would use a lot of Locktite (sp?) on the threads. I would not necessarily use the kind that requires heat to take it apart, but there is no reason to ever take that joint apart, so you could.

Note: the Locktite would be only on the threads, which is outside of the O-ring. You don't even need to use food grade Locktite since it doesn't even come in contact with the air supply.

Good luck
Luis

Buceador con escafandra autónoma clásica.

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kiwidiver
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Re: Phoenix nozzle clocking issue-solved?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:14 pm

Fair comment Luis. i will check when i get home if i can loosen the nozzle when it is attached to a tank, if so i will have to rethink it, as you say it isn't an issue with the plug. let us know how you go couv.

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luis
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Re: Phoenix nozzle clocking issue-solved?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:28 pm

Keep in mind that a rubber O-ring/ gasket will tend to take a set and relax with time and some thermal cycles (hot - cold).

There are a lot of variables (the amount of compression, how much temperature swings, magnitude and number of temperature cycles, etc.), that will affect how much compression set an O-ring will take, but be certain that a highly compress rubber O-ring will take a set. It is just a matter of time (in combination with some of the other variables).

That is one of the reasons why O-ring designs are captured in a groove and the amount of compression is designed to a specific range, too little compression and it may not seal well, too high compression and the O-ring will take too much of a set and will loose flexibility.

Gaskets that are designed to be in compressed (or crushed) are normally made of material that will not take as much of a set.
Luis

Buceador con escafandra autónoma clásica.

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captain
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Re: Phoenix nozzle clocking issue-solved?

Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:08 am

Just remember a thicker gasket of any type will alter the required pin length a little or a lot.
Captain

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luis
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Re: Phoenix nozzle clocking issue-solved?

Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:53 pm

The gap between the face of the pin-mushroom and the face of the nozzle is the same (about 0.035” to 0.040” gap). The pin, the mushroom, and the face of the nozzle (face of the Phoenix) all move together if the gasket thickness is changed. I did not change the pin length.

The only problem would arise if the gasket was so thick that the mushroom surface would be recessed (when it is pushed into the open position), but the O-rings involved are not that thick. The O-ring thickness before compression is 0.070”. Two of the nylon gaskets stacked together I think is about 0.050”. When I tried it, it did not make a difference to be concerned about.

Even after retracting the Phoenix nozzle by 0.020” (or even if it was a bit more), the mushroom is high enough that the diaphragm is always pressing hard on it.

The pin length criterion is that the face of the mushroom bottom out on the face of the Phoenix nozzle when the valve is open to the max. We don’t want the pin to be so long that instead of the mushroom bottoming out, the seat bottom out into the balancing chamber and the balancing chamber pushes hard on the filter and snap-ring.
Luis

Buceador con escafandra autónoma clásica.

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couv
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Re: Phoenix nozzle clocking issue-solved?

Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:45 pm

luis wrote:I have been able to clock all of my Phoenix, but it is not always easy. Sometimes it requires a heck of a lot of torque.

On one regulator that I just could not get it with any other combination, I did use a hard O-ring (I think it was Teflon). The O-ring was from McMaster-Carr. I did try the 90 durometer O-ring but was concern about the rubber relaxing over time and the first stage loosening.

I have had a standard RAM loosen up once due to the torque that can occur when pulling on the horns of the can. I just didn't torqued it tight enough... I have never allowed that again.

So the concern is that since there is no metal to metal tightening surface, the gasket can relax and the regulator can unscrew. This is not an issue with the plug, but it is a real issue when the regulator is mounted on a tank (using a yoke) and there is any twisting load applied to the horns. There is a decent moment arm if there is any load applied to the horns.

Therefore, if I was going to do it again, I would try the hard rubber O-ring like you are thinking about, but I would use a lot of Locktite (sp?) on the threads. I would not necessarily use the kind that requires heat to take it apart, but there is no reason to ever take that joint apart, so you could.

Note: the Locktite would be only on the threads, which is outside of the O-ring. You don't even need to use food grade Locktite since it doesn't even come in contact with the air supply.

Good luck
Hi All,

I've applied the Loctite and all seems well. The regulator holds pressure and the nozzle seems well fixed in the position I want it. My commitment aversion caused me to use the removable (Blue 242) product just in case I need to get back into it later-after all in 30 years from now I may have to replace that o-ring, and at 90 years old, I probably won’t have the strength of a 60 year old whippersnapper.

Captain, the only alteration I needed to make was to the IP spring adjustment screw. I took note of where it was before I backed it off to remove/install the nozzle. The screw required a bit move depth to compensate for the extra space between the pad and the diaphragm.

Thank you all for the suggestions,

Couv
A sincere THANK YOU to all at VDH who make this wonderful resource available and to all the thoughtful contributors.

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