NAVED and the future?

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Bryan
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NAVED and the future?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:57 am

I think the NAVED program has initially been a big success and I think that going forward from here I would like to take myself out of the picture as far as moderating the who what when where and why of the group. There are a lot of really talented and creative people in the Vintage Diving Community that can do an excellent job of making the group a huge success.

As a suggestion I would like to make an additional section to the forum and call it the NAVED corner. The moderator and administrator of that section of the forum would be voted on by the group and would be someone other than myself. If there is a lot of growth in the group I would think a separate website would be in order. When that happens I think it will be time to round up a few dollars from the group and purchase the name and for site maintenance.

Any thoughts to share on this ?
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

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luis
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Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:16 am

I think these are good ideas. For NAVED to have its own corner in your web site is probably a good move.
Luis

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ebj
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Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:37 pm

Sounds great! Cast my vote for Nemrod...the diver with the biggest blade would make a superb moderator.
Ernie

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JES
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Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:27 pm

Bryan,

I like your ideas and think that it's worth a try.

If we do nothing we know that it will never grow. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


Regards,

Joe
NAVED Master Diver #108
'Anima Sana In Corpore Sano’

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Nemrod
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Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:00 pm

I thought we were going to wait until Florida ---lol--- :D :shock: .

I think a NAVED corner on this site sounds fantastic. I do not think it needs another forum, we have two fine forums now, I just think something like announcements, member lists, proposed trips other info such as how to apply for a card would reside there with links to other forums as well. I don't think we should dilute the forums we have any further by starting another, not now anyway.

I was initially concerned about us putting NAVED on this site because of exposing our host to liability. Since this is really just a club at this time I don't see it as a problem after I thought a bit more about it.

James

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Bryan
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Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:13 pm

You are right James, we are just a social club for the time being. We will discuss this at length in Florida but I wanted to give the others that are not lucky enough to attend SDIII time to comment and add their thoughts.
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

duckbill
 

Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:56 am

I was wondering the same thing.
"What if someone asks for more information on NAVED once I tell them about it?". Everyone likes to have a web site to visit for more information. It wouldn't need to be a forum, just a place explaining what NAVED is with a description of vintage diving.

oldmossback
 

Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:08 pm

gents

Since I will not be able to be at SD III I have a question I'd like to put forth for y'alls discussions around the Ol' Hawk camp fire........

Will NAVED ever be a certifying agency in the next couple of years?

Liability issues and other labourious issues aside....my thought would be not a scuba diving certification but a equipment use certification, IE. certified in proper use of vintage equipment......prior scuba certification from other sources would be a major requirement......

Just a thought for y'alls enjoyment.........

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Bryan
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Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:06 pm

That is an excellent point and one we should look into......I'm afraid that it will be Lawyers Guns and Money no matter what way we go but an equipment certification might be a whole lot easier. Thanks for that thought!
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

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Creed
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Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:19 pm

If you are going that far, you need to be able to certify instructors, and formalize a course. And if you do that, you might as well throw in basic training, since you will have to reteach a majority of that to new divers who want to get NAVED certified.
So, I say, either don't do a certification at all, and just remain a socializing group, or bite the bullet and go all the way to becoming a certification agency. Anyone doing any sort of training, whether strictly in vintage equipment or whatever, will need professional liability insurance. The only question is what insurance the organization will need.

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Creed
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Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:32 am

Creed wrote:If you are going that far, you need to be able to certify instructors, and formalize a course. And if you do that, you might as well throw in basic training, since you will have to reteach a majority of that to new divers who want to get NAVED certified.
So, I say, either don't do a certification at all, and just remain a socializing group, or bite the bullet and go all the way to becoming a certification agency. Anyone doing any sort of training, whether strictly in vintage equipment or whatever, will need professional liability insurance. The only question is what insurance the organization will need.


Actually, there is a third option as well. You could talk to someone like NAUI and get a specialized NAVED sponsored course made up. Instructors would still be required to become certified by the agency, but this could either be an additional course or a different focus on the basic course.

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Nemrod
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Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:44 am

Right now I like our remaining a "club". This description covers most closely our activities as collectors and divers of vintage equipmment.

I do not have any interest myself in getting some outside agency such as NAUI to teach vintage diving---I doubt there would be a snowballs chance in Hades they would have the slightest interest anyways.

I can see at some point our needing to provide some sort of instruction or guidence. Right now, it goes like this. You meet a person and you get them interested in vintage diving and you offer to show them the ropes. They are already scuba certified and so are you. Your simply introducing them to another aspect of the sport. I just don't foresee large numbers of people flocking to vintage diving in the immediate future. Of course, there will be the odd person who has no vintage diver freinds and he/she wants to learn. NAVED to the rescue!!!!! because one of the things NAVED is all about is facilitating friendships. NAVED helps the new convert to vintage diving via the NAVED webssite and members list to find a vintage dive buddy to show him/her the way. There just is no reason to develop a anctioned course riight now. One thing I think we should do is get proposals from our most experienced divers, such as SeaRat and a few other ultra knowledgeable sorts and have them put together a suggested training manual. This manual would be given to oall NAVED members and would be used as a guide to introduce new divers to our sport. It would not be required---simply a suggested guide. Does anyone follow this. Strictly speaking what I am trying to do is offer vintage intorduction to certified divers by other certified divers thus avoiding the insurance/lieyers and all that. Your liability would be no greater than any buddy dive for all practical purposes.
At some point down the road there may be a few NAVED instructors but fellows, I ain't the boss, but there are huge hurdles between friends diving with friends and showing buddies how to use a piece of equipment and going all the way to instructors with insurance. I do have an idea on that modeled after the homebuilt aircraft industry--no insurance, no deep pockets, no lieyers are interested as a result and while waivers are not a panacea they have in fact worked in that industry to a degree. Example, a NXYZ certified diver learns vintage diving from some future NAVRD instructor and then drowns or has a hearta attack. The lieyer first tries to sue NAVED but NAVED only has ten bucks, you, the future instructor ain't exactly rich so the greedy lieyer goes looking--yep--NXYZ. After all, their training must have been deficient or the diver would not have needed additional training from NAVED. NXYZ gets sued, we go free. Thats is how the homebuilt aircraft industry does it. AND, like I said, that is a long ways off and may not be a direction we pursue.
Nemrod

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Bryan
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Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:16 am

I see what james is saying.....Instead of US writing it up why don't we just suggest that the person wanting to join READ and STUDY training manuals that already exist....Basic Scuba is a good example. There are tons of copies around....It would be easier to list the books and let the new NAVED diver practice in their pool or whatever they have avail. That way none of us have anything tied to our names as instructors as rules that We made up.
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

Walter
 

Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:25 am

We need to either remain a club with no training or formalize training with standards and insurance.

Example, a NXYZ certified diver learns vintage diving from some future NAVRD instructor and then drowns or has a hearta attack. The lieyer first tries to sue NAVED but NAVED only has ten bucks, you, the future instructor ain't exactly rich so the greedy lieyer
......takes your house, everything you own and everything you make for the rest of your life.

They are already scuba certified and so are you. Your simply introducing them to another aspect of the sport.


I can see the court case now:

Are you a qualified SCUBA instructor? No, then why did you take it upon yourself to teach SCUBA. Becoming an instructor lessens liability, it does not increase it.

The other case:

Are you a qualified SCUBA instructor? Yes. Very good, what gear does your agency require when you teach SCUBA? Does the "vintage" gear you and the student were using meet those requirements? No? Is that a violation of standards? Do the standards of any SCUBA certification agency allow you to teach with outdated gear? Have you received formal training in how to teach with such gear? (there are very few who can get past this question)

Unless we have a formal course to train instructors and a formal course to teach vintage gear and liability insurance we are opening ourselves up to big liability if we do any teaching at all. Any current instructors who teach vintage without sanction of their agency also runs the risk of losing their instructor status.

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luis
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Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:51 am

Under the new NAVED section of the web site we should have a section were recommended reading (book titles, etc) can be posted. Members could also post articles or links to other educational material. It should be done in such a way that the list of reading material is always easily accessible.

On a similar subject, I think we need a corner for information to assist on local dive shop education, specifically when it comes to tank inspection and testing. A place to post or download documents to assist in dealing with LDS I think would be beneficial to most of the members.
Luis

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